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Best DD Job now?Follow

#1 Apr 03 2012 at 7:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Well I havent played since 2007, and when I played I was a hard hitting RNG and I would always compete with BLM to see who could get the most dmage off chains and bursts. But alas, now I have no idea what a few of these new jobs can even do? Corsair? BLU? Dancer? Puppet master? Scholar? What are the good DD jobs for end game these days. i dont think i want to go back down the path of RNG anymore. Ive always wanted to play a DRG but they were always gimped when I played. Any suggestions anyone? Im starting my new character today.
#2 Apr 03 2012 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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DRG is actually pretty nice now. Magic bursts and skillchains are a lost art. You probably won't ever do them on purpose unless you are creating one yourself on BLU or DNC....or even SCH for that matter.

Play what you like and you'll play it better (and do more damage, or do it better) than 99% of all the gimpos out there running around.

Take what you remember about the game and throw it out the window.

And you'll probably never see a BRD until you eventually do Voidwatch.

The end.
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#4 Apr 03 2012 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Why are they a lost art? Are the basic mechanics of battle still the same or has this just become another hack hack hack battle system with the update?
#5 Apr 03 2012 at 7:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Play whatever job you like. Leveling is so easy now, if you change your mind, you can level 5 more jobs later that week. Not to mention, empyrean weapons (the new counterparts to relic and mythic weapons) are very easy to make in comparison, and can make a lot of DD jobs excellent.

As for the new jobs,

COR is a support-DD hybrid. It uses a gun and focuses on ranged attacks, with a few nice job abilities for special shots. A friend of mine made an empyrean gun for it, and it is an insane brewer. (Brews are a new temporary item for the new Abyssea areas; they max out your stats and are basically god mode for 3 minutes). It also has a luck-based BRD-like aspect: It has several job abilities called rolls (which I assume is supposed to refer to dice even though the animation is a pile of cards) which are party-wide buffs whose potency depends on what number you roll.

BLU is a hybrid of everything, but generally focuses on DD. It can also heal very well, stun, dispel, nuke, and sometimes tank. It's a meleeing mage and learns spells from monsters. You cast things like bomb toss and 1000 needles (well actually, no one casts those, because they suck, but those were the first old spells that came to mind that you might remember from 2007). There are 2 classifications of spells: physical spells (which, apart from mp consumption, behave like physical damage) and magical spells which behave like nukes.

PUP is a pet job. It is supposed to be very good when used correctly, but I don't know much about it. You have a puppet that fights with you, and you can alternate between different roles for it (healer, DD, nuker, I think).

DNC is a DD which can use its TP on cures, so in that respect it can be a healer, a DD, or a tank, or any combination that the situation calls for. It has a lot of job abilities to manage said TP. It's TP moves take the form of different dances, hence the name, and because of that, there are new emotes! /dance1, /dance2, /dance3, and /dance4. And they have animation! Completely irrelevant, but now your non-taru characters can dance.

SCH is a mage with two different modes: light and dark. It's basically a WHM and a BLM in one, missing a few key spells. It's got a ton of job abilities for a mage, which do things like reduce mp, reduce casting time, unlock other spells depending on whether you're in light or dark mode, etc. It's a lot of fun, being a pretty involved mage job, and if you're a girl you get to wear a miniskirt, but personally since I have both WHM and BLM leveled I almost never see a use for it :(



Edited, Apr 3rd 2012 9:57am by RizzoRazzle
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#6 Apr 03 2012 at 7:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Why are they a lost art? Are the basic mechanics of battle still the same or has this just become another hack hack hack battle system with the update?


There's not much of a point to hold your TP for other people anymore, just zerg most stuff down. When my friend and I duo things, we'll do em for fun, but that's about it.
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#7 Apr 03 2012 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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Personally, I prefer the versatility of WAR over any of the other DDs (except THF, because, well, TH and gobs of triple attack.) WAR and THF also have the benefit of massive AOE weapon skills, which allow for a newer type of exp burn that is ridiculously fun. I'm a Tarutaru and I've pumped out nearly 10K total damage on a single Fell Cleave at 99. (Note: That was across 7-8 mobs or so at once.) Aeolian Edge for dagger is similar, although not quite as high damage because great axe > dagger.

All the DD jobs are fun in their own ways. Out of the expansion jobs, BLU is probably the strongest, except compared to a Wildfire COR who is just so massively broken that I think Tanaka probably regrets them giving Wildfire to COR and not to SAM. Smiley: lol
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#8 Apr 03 2012 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
Personally, I prefer the versatility of WAR over any of the other DDs (except THF, because, well, TH and gobs of triple attack.) WAR and THF also have the benefit of massive AOE weapon skills, which allow for a newer type of exp burn that is ridiculously fun. I'm a Tarutaru and I've pumped out nearly 10K total damage on a single Fell Cleave at 99. (Note: That was across 7-8 mobs or so at once.) Aeolian Edge for dagger is similar, although not quite as high damage because great axe > dagger.

You gotta try aeolian edge with 2x tp bonus dagger, gales, ultimate, hell's guardian, all the MAB gear thf or dnc can wear and ascetic's tonic :D steady 2.1-2.3k a shot (depending on mob, seems to do less on cats than scorps). War still wins because of retaliation tho, but thf/sam with intense soothing light chest and sekka ws > ws > med > ws decimates pretty much anything too. ^_^
#9 Apr 03 2012 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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People have been saying skillchains are useless for years, and they've been wrong for years.

In random pickup groups with lots of damage dealers, it's generally inefficient to skillchain because your damage dealers are heavily mismatched. That is to say, they don't all get TP at the same rate, and there will be a lot of random skills thrown out which interrupt your efforts to chain. As well, on anything squishy (like EXP mobs) a WS or two without a skillchain is enough to finish them, so there is not much point to chaining there.

If you play with people you know, you can almost always set up a skillchain without gimping your skills. You don't need to 'hold' tp. If your partner is way behind, you just WS early and use one of the (many) abilities available to get TP back quickly. Almost every job has one.

A good light or darkness can double your WS damage, and if you're feeling really fancy, a three-parter can add 150% to it. Closing a chain for 4000 damage and seeing a 6000 damage darkness is just delicious.

People have, for whatever reason, gotten the idea in their heads that if you wanna skillchain you have to hold your TP up to 250% while your partner catches up, so they just don't bother. Basically, the trick is to not hold back and 'wait' for a skillchain, but to get a skillchain every chance you get. When it's convenient.

Basically, know what your WS chains with, and if you see someone pop off something you can close a chain off of, do so and enjoy the delicious damage. Don't use gimpy WS just for the sake of making a chain, and don't 'hold back' if your partner is more than a swing or two behind.

tl;dr: Skillchains are still fine and dandy, but people don't go out of their way or use gimpy skills to make them, because that'd defeat the point. If you can pull one off you absolutely should, but you don't build your party around making a skillchain anymore.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2012 4:06pm by ItsAMyri
#10 Apr 03 2012 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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A delicious Light or Dark is also the #1 reason to still bother unlocking WSNM weapon skills (beside blue light procs.)

Edited, Apr 3rd 2012 4:21pm by catwho
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#11 Apr 03 2012 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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The raw damage output of the top-end of most DD jobs is closer together now than it was at 75.

Gearing and, dare I say, skill is far more important anymore. High-grade TotM weapons and the right Neck/Belt for your merit WS if applicable is more important than WAR vs DRK vs DRG vs MNK.

And when it's not fairly close together for some factor, usually the toughest mobs in the game, there's a hefty amount of leapfrogging involved. A Vereth MNK will beat a WoE Gaxe WAR, but then a Shoha SAM will top both, and then an Ukon WAR will top them, then a DRK picks up a Ragnarok and comes screaming from 5th or 6th place to crush all of them handily on the toughest mobs.

All of the top DD jobs will swap and trade placement depending on situation.
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#12 Apr 04 2012 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
Raelix wrote:
The raw damage output of the top-end of most DD jobs is closer together now than it was at 75.

Gearing and, dare I say, skill is far more important anymore. High-grade TotM weapons and the right Neck/Belt for your merit WS if applicable is more important than WAR vs DRK vs DRG vs MNK.

And when it's not fairly close together for some factor, usually the toughest mobs in the game, there's a hefty amount of leapfrogging involved. A Vereth MNK will beat a WoE Gaxe WAR, but then a Shoha SAM will top both, and then an Ukon WAR will top them, then a DRK picks up a Ragnarok and comes screaming from 5th or 6th place to crush all of them handily on the toughest mobs.

All of the top DD jobs will swap and trade placement depending on situation.


I wish it was like this so long ago...but at least now we appreciate different jobs ._.
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#13 Apr 04 2012 at 11:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Seraphknight777 wrote:
Raelix wrote:
The raw damage output of the top-end of most DD jobs is closer together now than it was at 75.

Gearing and, dare I say, skill is far more important anymore. High-grade TotM weapons and the right Neck/Belt for your merit WS if applicable is more important than WAR vs DRK vs DRG vs MNK.

And when it's not fairly close together for some factor, usually the toughest mobs in the game, there's a hefty amount of leapfrogging involved. A Vereth MNK will beat a WoE Gaxe WAR, but then a Shoha SAM will top both, and then an Ukon WAR will top them, then a DRK picks up a Ragnarok and comes screaming from 5th or 6th place to crush all of them handily on the toughest mobs.

All of the top DD jobs will swap and trade placement depending on situation.


I wish it was like this so long ago...but at least now we appreciate different jobs ._.


What makes you think it was never like this in the past?
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#14 Apr 05 2012 at 12:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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zellbaca wrote:
What makes you think it was never like this in the past?

25% piercing bonus on birds says hello.

Y/G/K attack bonus and rampant inflation of boss defense with no effective mitigation for other jobs is another.

That pretty much covers meriting and high-tier fights completely. Plenty of other things.could add to this, like mobs with excessive attack power followed by an era of mobs that ignored shadows.

Edited, Apr 4th 2012 11:11pm by Raelix
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#15 Apr 05 2012 at 1:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Best DD > Buffed DD.
Not the best DD > DD that isn't buffed.

But BLU is the best, because I play it the most
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#16 Apr 05 2012 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
zellbaca wrote:
What makes you think it was never like this in the past?

25% piercing bonus on birds says hello.

Y/G/K attack bonus and rampant inflation of boss defense with no effective mitigation for other jobs is another.

That pretty much covers meriting and high-tier fights completely. Plenty of other things.could add to this, like mobs with excessive attack power followed by an era of mobs that ignored shadows.

Edited, Apr 4th 2012 11:11pm by Raelix


At the same time, souleater was the most devastating ability in the game until they started making everything resist it. Great katana weapon skills scaled poorly in environments (properly utilizing brd and cor) where mnk, war and drg would thrive. smn was never great damage over time, but useful in certain situations where enmity and range were issues. Etc. **** situational, just like it's always been.



Also, VZX is 100% correct. Smiley: nod
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#17 Apr 05 2012 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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Sam was and still is the hardest job too completely fail at, even crappy sams can still be put to more use then any other crappy player playing a DD. So risk/reward is safer with sams when dealing with pick ups and lesser skilled LSes and LS leader ship.
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#18 Apr 05 2012 at 8:41 PM Rating: Decent
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ItsAMyri wrote:
tl;dr: Skillchains are still fine and dandy, but people don't go out of their way or use gimpy skills to make them, because that'd defeat the point. If you can pull one off you absolutely should, but you don't build your party around making a skillchain anymore.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2012 4:06pm by ItsAMyri



This so much, even though it's abyssea dmg a mnk friend and I were doing frag skillchains on charriot. If I had used my tp on thf it wouldnt have added up to the dmg the skillcahin was doing. When you do a 21k skillchain there is no way you are being more "efficient" spamming ws.

Not to say that one shouldn't just go if your tp are way off balance. But if you have to wait 30tp for your friend to catch up you might want to wait.

Edited, Apr 5th 2012 10:56pm by Fumikuu
#19 Apr 06 2012 at 4:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Usually when I have a workable SC with someone, like THFs, I pull out the 2-4 Scythe and out-TP them by about 2:1 and just WS freely or open/close at will, usually instructing them to SATA Evis after Entropy if they can, but another will be along soon enough if they can't.
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#21 Apr 07 2012 at 3:20 AM Rating: Decent
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PUP looks good in WSdamage and what the puppet does, but their WS rate (pathetic compared to 2-handers or even MNK) and even total output is actually really below average, not to mention the vulnerability of the puppet in most situations that demand such damage output over such things as utility or sustain. Your notion is especially inflated by Abyssea where Stringing Pummel thrives.

To say: Combining a **** DD with an above-average pet does not total up to quite what you think it does, and this is coming from someone who has seen one the of the few KKK PUPs in the game.

It really is a matter of "Oh, you skillchained with your pet to kill that mob? I just WSed three mobs dead in the same amount of time, sorry". Pretty numbers, but not half as often as real DD.

Edited, Apr 7th 2012 2:23am by Raelix
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#22 Apr 07 2012 at 4:43 AM Rating: Default
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Raelix wrote:
The raw damage output of the top-end of most DD jobs is closer together now than it was at 75.

Gearing and, dare I say, skill is far more important anymore. High-grade TotM weapons and the right Neck/Belt for your merit WS if applicable is more important than WAR vs DRK vs DRG vs MNK.

And when it's not fairly close together for some factor, usually the toughest mobs in the game, there's a hefty amount of leapfrogging involved. A Vereth MNK will beat a WoE Gaxe WAR, but then a Shoha SAM will top both, and then an Ukon WAR will top them, then a DRK picks up a Ragnarok and comes screaming from 5th or 6th place to crush all of them handily on the toughest mobs.

All of the top DD jobs will swap and trade placement depending on situation.


Raelix, question for DRK. I've been going over my gear and wanted your advice on main hand weapons. Now I usually play SAM / RDM / BLU more then I play WAR / DRK but I like having it as an option and I absolutely do not want to gimp it up. So looking at main weapons, currently have Jing GSWD and Wroth Scyth with 5/5 Resolution. Is there a better GSWD that doesn't require a stupid amount of time investment (I'm spending that time on other jobs / events)? I was looking at the one off Ig'Alima but I rarely ever see /shouts on Lakshmi now. Thinking about the OaT but how hard are the 10 VWNM items to collect? Should I just get a Caladbolg due to it's relative ease of creation? How much sTP should I be shooting for in each of those setups? I know how to do SAM's calculation as it's a one shot WS typically but DRK use's multihits and I'm loath to make assumptions based on all hits landing.
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#23 Apr 07 2012 at 9:04 PM Rating: Decent
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That's a lot more than 'a question' Smiley: laugh.Make a thread over in the DRK forums, don't worry we don't bite... hard, so I can focus on it and not derail this topic much more. Busa's thread has a few of the same questions, particularly about main weapons, but in short OAT GS is far-and-away the best Output:Effort ratio.

I'm currently stuck on the Krab shells and taking a semi-monetary-enforced but semi-have-important-other-things-to-do break. Other than those and maybe farming Bastion points, if you've got at least the time and gil to camp Port Jeuno for Silver Mirrors and Riftsand (I'm 150/150 on both before even touching a Krab) then OAT is a breeze.

Edited, Apr 7th 2012 8:06pm by Raelix
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#25 Apr 08 2012 at 1:34 AM Rating: Good
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PUP without the puppet is indeed a **** DD. You've clearly never read the entirety of any of my posts before spouting off your inane babble. I know your stance here is spurred by seeing a PUP in abyssea drop ~5k Stringing Pummels closing 5k Darkness chains... twice a week.

You particularly missed the whole "I've seen a Kenkonken PUP in action, I was not impressed" part. A decent PUP is pretty good, but doesn't compare to real DD jobs in the slightest. Especially on hardened targets like high-tier VWNM. PUP has it good on easy pointless crap, and especially in Abyssea, but you're insane if you think their damage doesn't get crippled by anything with decent defense or evasion.

Edited, Apr 8th 2012 12:34am by Raelix
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#26 Apr 08 2012 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
PUP without the puppet is indeed a **** DD. You've clearly never read the entirety of any of my posts before spouting off your inane babble. I know your stance here is spurred by seeing a PUP in abyssea drop ~5k Stringing Pummels closing 5k Darkness chains... twice a week.

You particularly missed the whole "I've seen a Kenkonken PUP in action, I was not impressed" part. A decent PUP is pretty good, but doesn't compare to real DD jobs in the slightest. Especially on hardened targets like high-tier VWNM. PUP has it good on easy pointless crap, and especially in Abyssea, but you're insane if you think their damage doesn't get crippled by anything with decent defense or evasion.

Edited, Apr 8th 2012 12:34am by Raelix



Agree but let's be fair if for some reason (lousy shout alliance) your dd's are not getting buffed, then a very good pup MIGHT be able to keep up.

Frankly can't really see that happening.

What most casual players don't see is really good DDs fully buffed. The difference is night and day. And that is where basic misunderstandings come from



Nyzul maybe?

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#28 Apr 08 2012 at 3:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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What most casual players don't see is really good DDs fully buffed. The difference is night and day. And that is where basic misunderstandings come from


Is this really relevant, though? Any well-geared, fully buffed job is going to faceroll in terms of damage. Yeah, some jobs have a higher max potential when fully buffed, but at that point the only difference is who wins the epeen parse. The odds of picking one DD over another, and having that be the difference between life and death, are negligible.

How many hours per week do you spend with two bards and a corsair buffing you vs solo/lowman with either no buffs or just haste?

Basically, unless your primary goal in the game is to win parses in zerg-fights, I don't think picking a job based on that top-end fully-buffed potential is really going to improve your gaming experience.
#29 Apr 08 2012 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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There are a handful of really **** fine PUPs out there, and I'm privileged to know a few of them, but the average PUP is just a mediocre DD, I'm sad to say.

For every top notch PUP out there, there's five or six top notch SAMs, WARs, or MNKs to match.
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#31 Apr 08 2012 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
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It's an average DD until the puppet gets killed by AoE, then it's a supergimp MNK while they chew on JA delay or have to move out of range trying to get it back up.

"Has access to great DD tools" does not mean it can apply them steadily and readily for that matter. Puppets are still rock-stupid. If you're talking about PUPs with Vereth, they'd do more damage by switching to MNK main.

PUP is good for free powerful nukes, ranged damage on enemies with powerful but <10' AoEs, or making old content laughably easy to solo with Valoredge and cannibal blade. You're assuming that because PUP is some godlike machine of death in one area, that it can do all these things better than jobs dedicated to such.

A real BLM will always outnuke a BLM puppet, mostly by not being stupid.
A real RNG will outdamage a RNG puppet, mostly by not being stupid.
A real WHM will out-heal a WHM puppet, even if just as stupid (which would be someone who can't wipe their own ass).
A real DD will outdamage any puppet and the master, particularly because real DDs aren't stupid and don't sit on 300tp waiting for their master to get to 100tp to SC with.

PUP's greatest failing has always been the puppet AI. The only reason many mobs in this game are any semblance of defeatable is because they are f*cking braindead retarded. Puppets are hardly a step above that.

You're confusing PUPs POTENTIAL, quadruple emphasis to get past your reading difficulties, with their actual performance. On paper PUP is amazing, in practice even with the best gear and parts... not so much.
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#33 Apr 08 2012 at 10:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Raelix wrote:
You particularly missed the whole "I've seen a Kenkonken PUP in action, I was not impressed" part.

Yeah okay. You're a waste of time as ever.
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#34 Apr 09 2012 at 4:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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PUP's greatest failing has always been the puppet AI. The only reason many mobs in this game are any semblance of defeatable is because they are f*cking braindead retarded. Puppets are hardly a step above that.


Pretty much this. Robot's AI, **** ALL pets AI is so poorly written that its your 5yo little brother playing at the computer next to you. Heck the 5yo could probably do a better job. AI is too random in this game including NMs.
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#35 Apr 09 2012 at 7:19 AM Rating: Good
Raelix wrote:
It's an average DD until the puppet gets killed by AoE, then it's a supergimp MNK while they chew on JA delay or have to move out of range trying to get it back up.

"Has access to great DD tools" does not mean it can apply them steadily and readily for that matter. Puppets are still rock-stupid. If you're talking about PUPs with Vereth, they'd do more damage by switching to MNK main.

PUP is good for free powerful nukes, ranged damage on enemies with powerful but <10' AoEs, or making old content laughably easy to solo with Valoredge and cannibal blade. You're assuming that because PUP is some godlike machine of death in one area, that it can do all these things better than jobs dedicated to such.

A real BLM will always outnuke a BLM puppet, mostly by not being stupid.
A real RNG will outdamage a RNG puppet, mostly by not being stupid.
A real WHM will out-heal a WHM puppet, even if just as stupid (which would be someone who can't wipe their own ass).
A real DD will outdamage any puppet and the master, particularly because real DDs aren't stupid and don't sit on 300tp waiting for their master to get to 100tp to SC with.

PUP's greatest failing has always been the puppet AI. The only reason many mobs in this game are any semblance of defeatable is because they are f*cking braindead retarded. Puppets are hardly a step above that.

You're confusing PUPs POTENTIAL, quadruple emphasis to get past your reading difficulties, with their actual performance. On paper PUP is amazing, in practice even with the best gear and parts... not so much.



I was going to stay out of this little fight between you and zelduh becuase you started off mainly correct. A top notch pimped to the 9 pup would have a hard time keeping up with a top notch equipped to the 9 drk war sam or another heavy DD. However this idea that they cannot keep up or beat another generic empy DD or magain DD is false and some of the the problems you listed here are as well. I don't have parses or real number to give you to argue that point so let me just list the points I can argue., If you want to argue the math or fine details of DD verse DD camwin or jinte would be more knowledgeable and be able to better debate with you rather then picking on the resident pup forum groupie.(Others may call him/her a trollXD)

Anyways from the top shall we. If any AOE is enough to kill pet since the various adjustments they made to the attachments, additional traits, and several ways a pup can heal their pet now it should be killing PCs as well. At least a good pups auto anyways. Also if a pup can't keep their pet alive for more than a minute they aren't worth the party slot anyways.

You keep quoting pup AI, and with random tidbits about it's AI that's simply not true. Is it AI perfect? **** no. The melee AI has always been functional so why you decided to list that I have no idea. The mage puppet AI got a work around a couple months ago making it functional and logical most of the time, I am not gonna lie and say it's suddenly perfect. It's not. Also this idea that the puppet will hold tp until the master has 100 couldn't be more wrong if you tried. You must equip a special attachment known as Inhibator for it to hold tp to do a weaponskill. No pup worth their salt would ever EVER equip that in a party situation and if they did YOU STILL BE WRONG. Reason why? The way that attachment works is it will weaponskill with the FIRST weaponskill it sees to make a skill chain with. No matter who or what made skillchaining possible whether it be another PC, another pc's pet, or the master themselves.

Finally this lovely little list you got here let me break it down for you

A real blms edge over an automaton is in their AOEs and ability to proc. If we are talking just raw damage potential it be a wash unless meteor gets involved. Automatons use to have a massive edge over blms due to ice maker but now the real difference is what I listed above verses a pup ability to sit there and nuke freely, if the pet dies just pop out another one. While blms have to watch their hate and only have manawall or emnitity douse as their defenses against hate(Since most mobs these days at least nms can break down a ss in 1 hit). Additionally the puppet can continue to nuke even while the master is double weak while a blm cannot.

A real Rng suffers the same problem as a real blm does and this is where puppets really shine. Our pets can pump out damage like crazy and not have to worry about gaining hate, they die? Dues ex automata,Ranger lost a lot of their edge since autos have gotten a severely good snapshot and barrage, However your right though a real ranger would out damage the puppet, That's when the masters damage would come into play.

A real whm would be able to out heal a whm puppet. your right here but your wrong on severity. Pups with their pesky limitless mp supply on top of the recent ai changes makes them around as good of healers as dancers. We can heal much more effective and provide a variety of buffs they can't while they have the edge of direct control. Also just like a good dancer can really put the spotlight on just how horrible a bad whm is a puppetmaster can do the same. So no it doesn't take someone who can't wipe their own **** to be as bad as whm frame puppet. Also I think there a body builder somewhere out there who really like to invite you to a locked room with fantastic drapes.

And well I already covered your real DD comment. Utterly and completely wrong.


Also I like to just make something clear. You mentioned the fact how easily autos die as one of their weak points and while it's not as severe the fragility of an auto as you make it out to be I just like to make a point. Our ability to summon pets on a 1 minute timer is a strength not a weakness. It's a strength to be able to unload massive amount of damage and completely loose hate for that damage when our pet dies. It's a strength for the master to be able to throw all of his accumulated hate on a then freshly summoned pet. So that the master can continue to provide damage without worry of gaining hate.

So I ask you, please stop on your little pup hating spree becuase like I said you are properly right about the best pup VS the best War or sam. But you are beyond wrong in just about everything else. So until you know a little more about pup, please, shut up.:)
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#36 Apr 09 2012 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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So basically, Pup is about equal to a generic DD with a larger margin of Error, and at best below good DDs that have a smaller margin of error to work with unless the person playing has down's syndrome/has no clue about game mechanics etc., so it's a subpar DD.

I highly doubt Raelix is giving you 'hate speech', it's just the truth about the job. It would hardly be much different if they mentioned any pet job (this isn't including Drg). All of them are roughly equal to generic DDs at best when played right, and horribly behind when not.

Edited, Apr 9th 2012 12:10pm by Neisan
#37 Apr 09 2012 at 11:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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it is a sub-optimal DD, not sub-par. Sub-par would be like touting a Staff build SMN is the **** because Ifrit has DA aura.
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#38 Apr 09 2012 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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Incidentally, I'm pretty confident that 90% of the dislike of PUP comes from the fact that if you say the word "damage" around a PUP player they launch into a 30-minute spiel about how leet they are and how there was this one party where they outdamaged a DRK and oh my frickin God I don't care.

Just sayin'
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#39 Apr 09 2012 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Have to weigh in on the PUP as DD discussion...

PUP is an absolute monster DD for non-zerg situations, and has a unique benefit of splitting damage (rough estimate 60-65% master/35-40% puppet) to aid in hate control if you're using a real tank. The combined damage of master and puppet, accounting for TP and WS from both, DOES beat your average similar quality geared DD. Obviously if we're talking 60-65% of your total damage coming from the master, the master themselves shouldn't be beating a competent and similar quality geared DD job (nor should the puppet beat a true RNG or BLM). But add in that other 35-40% from the puppet, and the good PUP usually wins. Another unique aspect of PUP is effectively hate free nuking, with strong maneuver/attachment-enhanced nukes, then a quick deactivate/re-activate to shed all hate. Huge benefit for fights where the mob is weak to magic and you're trying to have a tank hold hate (and if needed the master can even stay out of AoE range, or use a full strength BLM puppet to keep on DDing while the master itself is weakened).

The skill needed to effectively DD on PUP is also vastly overrated. Auto-attack, WS at 100tp, and add in the oh-so-complex step of deploying your puppet and cycling in some maneuvers (wind/fire/thunder or wind/wind/fire are your basic DD rotations with Sharpshot frame). I agree that only fools sit on 300tp waiting to SC with their pet... but Stringing Pummel or Victory Smite are strong options and can be used right away at 100tp (my MNK is jealous of not having Stringing Pummel). And the puppet will WS at 100tp on its own as well, adding a big chunk of damage (say, Armor Shatterer from the RNG frame, which gives solid damage AND a defense down effect on the mob that helps all DDs attacking that mob).

For pure damage on a controlled fight, PUP is quite simply a beast. Not that it doesn't have its downsides though:
* PUP isn't as good a zerg job as something like MNK or DRK.
* PUP has less tanking ability than something like MNK (counters).
* While the mage frames can compete on raw nuking power, or healing power (effectively unlimited MP to toss Cure VI spam), they can't compete in precise selection. BLMs can use the ideal spell for the situation (including procs), and have some great benefits like sleep and stun that the puppet doesn't get. WHMs can cast faster and use specific buffs/erase specific ailments from party member far better than a puppet.
* PUP is fairly weak in procs across the board (red, blue, yellow) for Abyssea content.

A few of the complaints I've seen are outdated and though they may have been true in the past, are not an issue now:

1) Long ability timers potentially leaving the master puppet-less and gimped are a thing of the past. Deus ex Automata (activate with lowered HP, which can be easily healed with the Repair JA and an Automaton Oil) is on a 1min timer. In the old days with a 20min Activate timer? Yeah, was a HUGE problem for the job. Now? Irrelevant if the pet dies, they're totally disposable.

2) "Difficulty" of playing/gearing PUP... also not really so much the case these days. In the old days PUP had few great options and had to work hard for the limited strong DD options. Now, it's on the normal good light DD pieces just like MNK, NIN, THF, etc. Get an Empy+2 armor set, an Empy or magian weapon (fire claws are great for PUP, and with Stringing Pummel being so good a pair of fire/STR path H2H arguably beat an 85 Verethragna since V.Smite isn't as big of a deal for PUP), some general gear that's the same as other DDs (Rancor Collar, Ocelomeh/Toci, etc), and you're set. No harder to gear than the usual DD. On the puppet side, most vital attachments are cheap, with the one big exception of a Turbo Charger (pet haste). It doesn't take a rocket scientist.

3) AI issues? Never have been a problem for the Sharpshot frame, the primary physical DD puppet. Just deploy the thing near the mob, let it attack, and cycle a basic set of DD-focused maneuvers (generally some combination of wind/fire/thunder). And even for the mage frames, AI issues have been drastically improved - and even before those issues mainly impacted the healer puppet, not DD.

Edited, Apr 9th 2012 2:02pm by Anza
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#40 Apr 09 2012 at 12:15 PM Rating: Default
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If you're fighting anything you need a 'real' tank for, an automaton won't be alive for very long.

That damage split may apply for weaker mobs, but I've never seen a maton come close to that. Only know bad pups etc., but as far as I'm concerned it's no different with avatars - they simply don't put out the damage I've heard others claim they do.



Edited, Apr 9th 2012 3:18pm by Neisan
#41 Apr 09 2012 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Neisan wrote:
If you're fighting anything you need a 'real' tank for, an automaton won't be alive for very long.

That damage split may apply for weaker mobs, but I've never seen a maton come close to that. Only know bad pups etc., but as far as I'm concerned it's no different with avatars - they simply don't put out the damage I've heard others claim they do.


The advantage to an avatar isn't the damage, although it's decent enough in the hands of a well geared summoner.

The advantage to an avatar, or any pet job, is ranged damage. You sic your avatar or your puppet or your sheep on the NM and you get the **** out of AOE range. The avatar will last the shortest amount of time, but can be resummoned instantly at full health. And as long as at least one pet is still alive in a multi-pet setup, the odds of any of the masters getting hate are really, really low.

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#42 Apr 09 2012 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
I did all my defending of PUP a long time ago., don't give a **** much now if ppl like it or hate it(tho i had noticed before my current real-life imposed break that many ppl that swore PUP was **** and wouldn't be caught playing it to my face were actually lvl'ing it in secret-take that for w/e). But i will say something at this post---v

Neisan wrote:
1)If you're fighting anything you need a 'real' tank for, an automaton won't be alive for very long.

2)That damage split may apply for weaker mobs, but I've never seen a maton come close to that. Only know bad pups etc., but as far as I'm concerned it's no different with avatars - they simply don't put out the damage I've heard others claim they do.



Edited, Apr 9th 2012 3:18pm by Neisan



1- If you are fighting anything that needs a 'real tank', odds are its because the mob is pushing heavy AOE dmg moves and NO dd will be alive for very long. Anza even addressed the PUP perspective on these type mobs with.

Anza wrote:
1) Long ability timers potentially leaving the master puppet-less and gimped are a thing of the past. Deus ex Automata (activate with lowered HP, which can be easily healed with the Repair JA and an Automaton Oil) is on a 1min timer. In the old days with a 20min Activate timer? Yeah, was a HUGE problem for the job. Now? Irrelevant if the pet dies, they're totally disposable.


And no no no, an automaton is not just like an avatar. Both are disposable yes, but an avatar is essentially a a club that can stop 2x a min to use a special move. An avatar is like a mini-player i guess, with its on TP and WS phases and its own set of timed abilities that are customizable by which attachments are equipped.


2- The vast majority of PUPs i've seen ingame, flat-out suck. I've maybe seen 4 ingame that were worth a damn. I don't think that's an indictment against the job tho as much as it says something about one type of player that is drawn to a job like PUP. Everyone knows the type; clueless about FFXI in general and have glombed on to X job because 'they' will show everyone how the job is supposed to be played. Will shout down anyone saying anything remotely unflattering X job. You know? That guy you get /t's from for an hour after you stopped listening and end up /blisting?

On track and back to your dmg split assertation, Anza nailed it there too. In fact as lvl-corection starts rearing its ugly head, a properly outfitted automaton can start closing the gap between master and pet dmg. Attuner and Target Marker actually give an automaton a nice boost against mobs where lvl correction is an issue ignoring %'s of mob def and eva respectively.

Like i've said plenty of times to ppl ingame-if you don't like PUP? Fine. Just don't throw out stuff that is inaccurate to justify your dislike. "Just 'cause" is reason enough in my book.

EX-I hate Cabbage Patch dolls. Always have. Was never wronged by one, they don't scare me, i just frickin' hate 'em.
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#43 Apr 09 2012 at 2:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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If PUP was the top DD in the game it would be flat out broken.

PUP is a utility job designed to fill a number of roles. Whether or not it does these roles well isn't the point - the point is that PUP was created specifically to fill a variety of roles, hence the different heads etc.

The top DD in the game should always be an out and out dedicated DD, something like RNG or MNK etc.
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#44 Apr 09 2012 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Erecia wrote:
Incidentally, I'm pretty confident that 90% of the dislike of PUP comes from the fact that if you say the word "damage" around a PUP player they launch into a 30-minute spiel about how leet they are and how there was this one party where they outdamaged a DRK and oh my frickin God I don't care.

Just sayin'

I'd just like to break up the giant theses on PUP and why it is/isn't a good DD job with a slow clap for Erecia hitting the nail on the head. I haven't yet met a PUP who didn't seem to have a canned essay loaded into macros ready to fire off at anyone who mentions their damage (good or bad).
#45 Apr 09 2012 at 3:46 PM Rating: Default
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I like the part where PUP is just as good a healer as a DNC. It's funny on so many levels.
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PUP is an average to above average DD... when not in a zerg situation... or on particularly hard targets... and when properly configured... on windsday... with a RDM...
#47 Apr 09 2012 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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So much wrong in one post...
#48 Apr 09 2012 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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You know guys, a bard can TOTALLY be one of the top damage dealers.

Totally and seriously. Smiley: nod

Pay no attention to the WAR I use as my DD job, It's just there for pretend. My bard has 5/5 Extentorator and knows how to use it!
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#49 Apr 09 2012 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
Anza wrote:
Have to weigh in on the PUP as DD discussion...

PUP is an absolute monster DD for non-zerg situations, and has a unique benefit of splitting damage (rough estimate 60-65% master/35-40% puppet) to aid in hate control if you're using a real tank. The combined damage of master and puppet, accounting for TP and WS from both, DOES beat your average similar quality geared DD. Obviously if we're talking 60-65% of your total damage coming from the master, the master themselves shouldn't be beating a competent and similar quality geared DD job (nor should the puppet beat a true RNG or BLM). But add in that other 35-40% from the puppet, and the good PUP usually wins. Another unique aspect of PUP is effectively hate free nuking, with strong maneuver/attachment-enhanced nukes, then a quick deactivate/re-activate to shed all hate. Huge benefit for fights where the mob is weak to magic and you're trying to have a tank hold hate (and if needed the master can even stay out of AoE range, or use a full strength BLM puppet to keep on DDing while the master itself is weakened).

The skill needed to effectively DD on PUP is also vastly overrated. Auto-attack, WS at 100tp, and add in the oh-so-complex step of deploying your puppet and cycling in some maneuvers (wind/fire/thunder or wind/wind/fire are your basic DD rotations with Sharpshot frame). I agree that only fools sit on 300tp waiting to SC with their pet... but Stringing Pummel or Victory Smite are strong options and can be used right away at 100tp (my MNK is jealous of not having Stringing Pummel). And the puppet will WS at 100tp on its own as well, adding a big chunk of damage (say, Armor Shatterer from the RNG frame, which gives solid damage AND a defense down effect on the mob that helps all DDs attacking that mob).

For pure damage on a controlled fight, PUP is quite simply a beast. Not that it doesn't have its downsides though:
* PUP isn't as good a zerg job as something like MNK or DRK.
* PUP has less tanking ability than something like MNK (counters).
* While the mage frames can compete on raw nuking power, or healing power (effectively unlimited MP to toss Cure VI spam), they can't compete in precise selection. BLMs can use the ideal spell for the situation (including procs), and have some great benefits like sleep and stun that the puppet doesn't get. WHMs can cast faster and use specific buffs/erase specific ailments from party member far better than a puppet.
* PUP is fairly weak in procs across the board (red, blue, yellow) for Abyssea content.

A few of the complaints I've seen are outdated and though they may have been true in the past, are not an issue now:

1) Long ability timers potentially leaving the master puppet-less and gimped are a thing of the past. Deus ex Automata (activate with lowered HP, which can be easily healed with the Repair JA and an Automaton Oil) is on a 1min timer. In the old days with a 20min Activate timer? Yeah, was a HUGE problem for the job. Now? Irrelevant if the pet dies, they're totally disposable.

2) "Difficulty" of playing/gearing PUP... also not really so much the case these days. In the old days PUP had few great options and had to work hard for the limited strong DD options. Now, it's on the normal good light DD pieces just like MNK, NIN, THF, etc. Get an Empy+2 armor set, an Empy or magian weapon (fire claws are great for PUP, and with Stringing Pummel being so good a pair of fire/STR path H2H arguably beat an 85 Verethragna since V.Smite isn't as big of a deal for PUP), some general gear that's the same as other DDs (Rancor Collar, Ocelomeh/Toci, etc), and you're set. No harder to gear than the usual DD. On the puppet side, most vital attachments are cheap, with the one big exception of a Turbo Charger (pet haste). It doesn't take a rocket scientist.

3) AI issues? Never have been a problem for the Sharpshot frame, the primary physical DD puppet. Just deploy the thing near the mob, let it attack, and cycle a basic set of DD-focused maneuvers (generally some combination of wind/fire/thunder). And even for the mage frames, AI issues have been drastically improved - and even before those issues mainly impacted the healer puppet, not DD.

Edited, Apr 9th 2012 2:02pm by Anza


i'll sit here, and wait for a brave soul who tries and disprove what anza just wrote.

I'm also of the same idea that the best PUP versus the best (i'll use SAM because is my other job) SAM, PUP will have a hard time keeping up with him, on a zerg sam will beat the pup hands down. but knowing both jobs perfectly well, the distance between pup and other heavy damage dealers is not as large as some people on this forum seem to believe, and it should be that way, because the other jobs dont have the other tools PUP have, it makes sence that dedicated heavy damage dealers would come up on top of PUP, but PUP is dangerously close. in my honest opinion.
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#50 Apr 09 2012 at 11:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Is PUP the best DD? No, and Anza does a great job explaining why. However, the problem with PUP isn't its damage, it's a complete misunderstanding of the job itself by many players.

While I'm every job receives its fair share of uninformed comments, I've ran into exponentially more people (and read several posts on various forums) who make declarations and judgements about PUP that are often outdated and occasionally flat out untrue at any point in time. The job has received numerous updates to increase its viability, yet people tend to overlook these things out of laziness with staying informed. I've even ran into people who didn't know the basic mechanics of the job, such as people who thought you could select which spell to cast and when, etc.

There are many times I've been declined a party solely because of my job, without any knowledge of my gear, skill, experience, or other determining factors in selecting members. It's frustrating to play second fiddle to someone with subpar equipment (Pink/Teal sets being a common example) solely because of job selection when a properly equipped PUP can perform many roles adequately, but on the other hand, it's extremely rewarding when I party with someone reluctant to give PUP a chance and end up completely changing their mind on the job. Example: the other night I was in an Apademak 5-man party, and our NIN tank rudely decided to ditch the party with no prior notice after a single fight. We tried to find a replacement to no avail, so I said I would tank. I swapped to /nin sub, and upon coming back, the party was doubtful, with comments such as, "I thought you said you were switching to a tank job?" Although my fellow members were more than skeptical of PUP's capabilites as tank, shortly in the future we were sitting on 5/5 Apademak kills (1 tanked by the NIN and the other 4 by me). I asked the party if I had changed anyone's opinion on PUP, and received nothing but "/"s in response.

tl;dr: PUP is fine. It's not the best damage dealer, but the tools available to the job more than compensate. The problem is with what's seemingly a large portion of the community adhering to the outdated "Laughing Out Loud @ PUP" **** censor) mentality of five years ago due to:
1. Laziness with keeping informed (on patch notes, changes to the job, new discoveries, etc)
2. Misunderstanding or ignorance of the basic mechanics of the job (i.e., how maneuvers and attachments work, etc)
3. Lack of knowledge regarding the hard data of the job (e.g., some people not realizing PUP has the 2nd best native evasion in the game thanks to Evasion Bonus IV)
4. Doubtfulness regarding the roles the job can perform (e.g., "PUP as main healer/eva tank? Yeah right, I'll see it when I believe it!")
5. The lurking stigma of the job being subpar when it was first released
6. The functions/output of the master and puppet being split (total damage between them being an example already mentioned in this thread)

I apologize if I sounds like one of the PUPs who sends "macro'd essays" about the job at people, but I think that type of reaction shouldn't seem unexpected when so many people are utterly clueless about the job in the first place--many people have flat out told me "I know nothing about PUP." When PUPs explain things about the job, we don't have ill intent and we're not trying to annoy you--we're just trying to clear up the misconceptions about us.

Edited, Apr 10th 2012 12:29am by Pelamir
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#51 Apr 10 2012 at 6:46 AM Rating: Decent
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The PUP apologists aren't making the job any more relevant to the intent of the thread. I just made the assumption the puppet was waiting for the master every time because their WS rates always seemed a near match (this may also be because this was single digit counts per fight compared to the tens or twenties of WS of real DD). The Sharpshot's accuracy was horrendous too, like 65-70% even just on the tier 2 Zilart we were doing (this wasn't the KKK PUP btw).

And my AoE reference was mostly because you can't use Fanatics/Fools on a puppet, which is a major sticking point in VWNM.

But I get it. PUP is an average to above average DD... when not in a zerg situation... or on particularly hard targets... and when properly configured... on windsday... with a RDM... and none of the other DDs are getting haste or marches or are even above decent. I think I covered most of what was said.

That's a lot of 'ifs' and work to be average. Enough effort to put any other DD into such a top tier to make said PUP look pathetic. Please stop this tirade.

If I were to list the jobs not eligible for this thread, I would likely list PUP first, even after considering BST, DNC, maybe THF and NIN, and all before even getting into the vagueness of melee vs. ranged vs. magic DDs or negotiating inside or outside of Abyssea.

I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that PUP is never the top DD in any situation. PUP does a lot of things pretty good, but bringing it up in a 'Best DD' thread was stupid from the beginning.

Edited, Apr 10th 2012 5:55am by Raelix
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