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#1 Mar 04 2010 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Is there a program out there that will allow me to view dps? I want to compare different gear sets and merits and see for myself the effect on DPS.
#2 Mar 04 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Not really, no. Besides, those things are way easier to just estimate the DoT improvements of rather than go through the long way and calculating out damage in full.

In b4 BrimstoneFox or whoever maintains that one calc now.



Edited, Mar 4th 2010 2:23pm by bsphil
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#3 Mar 04 2010 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
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Actually, I'll endorse that calculator as well. You can find it here:

http://code.google.com/p/ffxidmgformula/

As bsPhil said, it was created by BrimstoneFox. But it is now maintained by Masamunai. Really, the following ways of making comparisons or dps decisions can work,
*Doing the math yourself
*A game calculator/spreadsheet
*Parsing
*Eyeballing

There are times where each of these will be perfectly acceptable, or otherwise the best method of getting the information you want. Personally, I usually prefer parsing for a general idea and doing the math myself for a very rigid comparison. But there are plenty of good reasons to use a calculator.

As for this particular one, I'll endorse it because I am fairly familiar with Masamunai. He's very tenacious and obsessive with detail. And if anything new comes up with regards to DPS calculations he's usually at the forefront. We probably wouldn't know the Dex:Crit relation if it wasn't for that tenacity. And you can also see some very important pDif research he's done, which show the pDif trends and critical values to be much different (since the 2h update) than the ones from wiki that forum veterans have been relying on for years.
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#4 Mar 08 2010 at 7:37 PM Rating: Good
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Wow this is a great tool. Thx alot for the link, it has helped alot.
#5 Mar 08 2010 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
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And remember: there are always things such a spreadsheet or calculator will miss, such as capping attack part of the time with Chaos Roll and proper usage of Absorb-TP.

Calculator says a SAM with equal haste and 5-hit should out-WS me about five to three. Parsed results say I match or exceed them in frequency.

Edited, Mar 8th 2010 7:38pm by Raelix
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#6 Mar 08 2010 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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Raelix wrote:
And remember: there are always things such a spreadsheet or calculator will miss, such as capping attack part of the time with Chaos Roll and proper usage of Absorb-TP.

Calculator says a SAM with equal haste and 5-hit should out-WS me about five to three. Parsed results say I match or exceed them in frequency.
Well, you're also missing the human element. Hell, I've gone up against people geared equally as well or better as I was and I've crushed them damage-wise just by being more mentally prepared. Riding JA recast timers, autotargeting the next mob, WSing immediately at 100 TP instead of sitting on it, etc.
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#7 Mar 08 2010 at 10:05 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Raelix wrote:
And remember: there are always things such a spreadsheet or calculator will miss, such as capping attack part of the time with Chaos Roll and proper usage of Absorb-TP.

Calculator says a SAM with equal haste and 5-hit should out-WS me about five to three. Parsed results say I match or exceed them in frequency.
Well, you're also missing the human element. Hell, I've gone up against people geared equally as well or better as I was and I've crushed them damage-wise just by being more mentally prepared. Riding JA recast timers, autotargeting the next mob, WSing immediately at 100 TP instead of sitting on it, etc.

That was more my point, but even moreso that all these 'in depth calculations' that say one combo is better than another sometimes don't even take into account the core mechanics of the job in question. I've seen calculators try to claim Butachi +1 is 10% better than Hagun.. if you could 5-hit it... and ignoring Hagun's TP Bonus...
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#8 Mar 08 2010 at 10:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Raelix wrote:
And remember: there are always things such a spreadsheet or calculator will miss, such as capping attack part of the time with Chaos Roll and proper usage of Absorb-TP.

Calculator says a SAM with equal haste and 5-hit should out-WS me about five to three. Parsed results say I match or exceed them in frequency.
Well, you're also missing the human element. Hell, I've gone up against people geared equally as well or better as I was and I've crushed them damage-wise just by being more mentally prepared. Riding JA recast timers, autotargeting the next mob, WSing immediately at 100 TP instead of sitting on it, etc.

That was more my point, but even moreso that all these 'in depth calculations' that say one combo is better than another sometimes don't even take into account the core mechanics of the job in question. I've seen calculators try to claim Butachi +1 is 10% better than Hagun.. if you could 5-hit it... and ignoring Hagun's TP Bonus...
5hit on a 437 delay gk?
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#9 Mar 08 2010 at 10:12 PM Rating: Good
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
5hit on a 437 delay gk?

Exaaactly... doesn't(?) happen.

Same thing goes on when a 'damage calculator' ignores core components of DRK, like Drain, Drain II, Dread Spikes, Absorb-TP, Absorb-ACC...
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#10 Mar 08 2010 at 10:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Raelix wrote:
And remember: there are always things such a spreadsheet or calculator will miss, such as capping attack part of the time with Chaos Roll and proper usage of Absorb-TP.

Calculator says a SAM with equal haste and 5-hit should out-WS me about five to three. Parsed results say I match or exceed them in frequency.
Well, you're also missing the human element. Hell, I've gone up against people geared equally as well or better as I was and I've crushed them damage-wise just by being more mentally prepared. Riding JA recast timers, autotargeting the next mob, WSing immediately at 100 TP instead of sitting on it, etc.

That was more my point, but even moreso that all these 'in depth calculations' that say one combo is better than another sometimes don't even take into account the core mechanics of the job in question. I've seen calculators try to claim Butachi +1 is 10% better than Hagun.. if you could 5-hit it... and ignoring Hagun's TP Bonus...
Well yeah that's one of the main reasons I advised against using the calculator, lol. Besides, calculating DPS with entire sets is needlessly complicated and far too much work when it's way easier to just compare two items back to back and how they improve the gearset as a whole.

Edited, Mar 8th 2010 10:16pm by bsphil
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#11 Mar 08 2010 at 10:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not all calculators are created equally, that much is certain.

It's also important to know that our understanding of the game math isn't even perfect. It was only about 4 months ago that we finally understood dex:crit. Currently, the pDif formulas that most of the comparisons we've made in the past, and are presently using, are completely false--they're not even really very close. And even the new pDif information seems to only be half complete. "JA/WS pause" is a relatively new thing that is absolutely crucial to comparing "x hit" setups, haste setups, sub job differences, and the like. It can easily flip the "x > y" (pause not considered) to "y > x" (pause considered) for some comparisons. There's more, definitely. These are just some examples. Our math isn't quite so accurate as we think.
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#12 Mar 08 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Shamaya wrote:
the pDif formulas that most of the comparisons we've made in the past, and are presently using, are completely false

It wasn't too hard to work out what changed once I got sick of waiting. The tl;dr is that even things people think they know can change overnight.
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#13 Mar 08 2010 at 11:20 PM Rating: Good
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Many things covered in this thread have been important from a "perfect calculation of DPS" standpoint, but I have found. in reading through it, that I take issue with the subject:

Shamaya wrote:
...It's also important to know that our understanding of the game math isn't even perfect... Currently, the pDif formulas that most of the comparisons we've made in the past, and are presently using, are completely false..."JA/WS pause" is a relatively new thing that is absolutely crucial to comparing "x hit" setups, haste setups, sub job differences, and the like. It can easily flip the "x > y" (pause not considered) to "y > x" (pause considered) for some comparisons. There's more, definitely. These are just some examples. Our math isn't quite so accurate as we think.


I think that, at a certain point, everyone should agree that further improvement, or perhaps better called minuscule improvement, is pointless. That point is occurs when even a second or two of added delay negates what "improvements" one would have made.

Is this the next level of gear you're after? Is this the +1 cape for which you saved? All erased in the blip of a server, the pause of a finger, all powerless before but a moment's distraction.

An aside: before someone tries to point out a fallacy of the beard or the like, I would like to assert that I am not saying that several minuscule improvements do not make an overall more sizable one.
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#14 Mar 10 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok I'm going to point out a couple things here.

First off the DoT formulas are not right in v4.0 onwards. (this is easily proven by adding 1 sTP to any gear set and noticing it will minorly change your damage output - which makes no sense unless it changes your xHit build). Upto including v3.2 I had a factor called 'Effective Delay' which just modified your natural delay/haste/DA/TA/acc. into one factor with 100% accuracy. This worked pretty well, but for some multihit weapons it certainly wasn't ideal. Masa added a nice table to calculate probability for any given round in v4, but made the mistake of scaling TP to account of DA or accuracy instead of time. We'll looking at trying to do a full probability table, but the math is very intensive. Its been a good 10-12 years since I've taken statistics or probability and I don't have much free time to work on it, so its been slow going.

2nd: the tool is used for comparing setups in ideal circumstances, which really don't exist. The DoT portion can be tested agains Fortifications without Lag. (ie checking DA rates, average TP return, average TP started with on a ws etc..) Other parses you can compare more generic information such as your max/min for regular melee or crits. Obviously when there's pauses in battle, you get TP from getting hit, you get feather tickled the mob runs away because a mage pulled hate, etc. etc. the DoT piece won't match up at all. But that's irrelevant for comparing gear (most of the time at least, some situations the continuedness of the fighting is likely to make a logical decision as to why an answer might not make sense). Also comparing the data to a random parse isn't entirely valid just because gear swaps might not be consistent, debuffs and mob levels may not be consistent (although kparse can filter mob levels).

3rd: it clearly does not calculate ever niche circumstance correctly, I never figured out a good way to have the 15% AGI bonus of the Rogue Armlets+1 work (but you can easily do the math your self and add the bonus - then the sheet does the rest of the calculations). It attempts to do somethings though such as estimate Souleater damage based on your HP - although I'm pretty sure it assumes you are not cured.(I don't remember and I'm not sure if Masa changed it, I set it up well over a year ago). Buffs can be tweaked very easily if you have the world's luckiest COR you can just go to that page and change the attack modifier to the % needed for 11s.

As a melee paying attention and not being an idiot with adequate gear will often make up for getting uber gear+1. (engaging mobs quickly, not WSing @1%, riding recast timers).

I don't see a Butachi +1 in the default gear list, so I think you're talking about a different calculator.

Quote:
Well yeah that's one of the main reasons I advised against using the calculator, lol. Besides, calculating DPS with entire sets is needlessly complicated and far too much work when it's way easier to just compare two items back to back and how they improve the gearset as a whole.


But why stop there, maybe people shouldn't use a parser either, just go out and whack a mob once and compare the 2 numbers.

Finally, its obviously the goal to make this as accurate as possible, but I would tend to think some changes (such as the ws delay) will make little difference for comparison sake because it will be equal between both, but when its easy enough to have a tool do it all, you might as well. The other obvious goal is to have the tool report average differences. (since that's going to be what most people care about). I'm happy to look at anything someone thinks is wrong. Whatever is incorrect with the formulas should at least be equal and without bias, which is good from a comparison point of view.
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#15 Mar 10 2010 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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BrimstoneFox wrote:
Quote:
Well yeah that's one of the main reasons I advised against using the calculator, lol. Besides, calculating DPS with entire sets is needlessly complicated and far too much work when it's way easier to just compare two items back to back and how they improve the gearset as a whole.
But why stop there, maybe people shouldn't use a parser either, just go out and whack a mob once and compare the 2 numbers.
What? That's a rather stupid comment to make.
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#16 Mar 10 2010 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
BrimstoneFox wrote:
Quote:
Well yeah that's one of the main reasons I advised against using the calculator, lol. Besides, calculating DPS with entire sets is needlessly complicated and far too much work when it's way easier to just compare two items back to back and how they improve the gearset as a whole.
But why stop there, maybe people shouldn't use a parser either, just go out and whack a mob once and compare the 2 numbers.
What? That's a rather stupid comment to make.


Ditto, of course it was.

Why be for one type of automation but against another? It doesn't make sense, its like being half-Amish.

If you think the damage formulas hold any validity carry it through to the end, the whole is merely equal to the sum of the parts. Its not rocket science nor is it hidden voodoo magic, its just a long series of equations where the output of one is the input to the next, running other calculations is neither 'easier' or 'more accurate'. (after all the hard work has been done here, doing it the long way is both 'harder' and 'more error prone'). Its no different than trying to scribble damage numbers onto a piece of paper when a parser can do it for you.
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#17 Mar 10 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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BrimstoneFox wrote:
If you think the damage formulas hold any validity carry it through to the end, the whole is merely equal to the sum of the parts. Its not rocket science nor is it hidden voodoo magic, its just a long series of equations where the output of one is the input to the next, running other calculations is neither 'easier' or 'more accurate'. (after all the hard work has been done here, doing it the long way is both 'harder' and 'more error prone'). Its no different than trying to scribble damage numbers onto a piece of paper when a parser can do it for you.
Say you're comparing A to B, for sake of simplicity, one piece of gear or another for the same slot. No matter which you choose, the rest of the equation after choosing A or B will be identical. Why bother dragging out the comparison? If A is 2% better it will be 2% better whether you go through and calculate everything out, or if you just look at A vs B. i.e.:

(((((A + x) * ɑ) * β) * γ) * δ) = Y

vs

(((((B + x) * ɑ) * β) * γ) * δ) = Z

instead of

A + x

vs

B + x

There's nothing wrong with using either comparison in the sense that they'll both give you the same answers, it's just that you already know the answer without following the entire equation through to completion.
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#18 Mar 10 2010 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Not all of the equations are linear for starters (in fact I'd say most probably aren't).

2nd of all, comparing things which alter a number of factors starts to be come more complex.

Quick and dirty numbers obviously have some use and validity, but there's no sense in swearing by them.

(of course the converse is with the spread sheet is if you hit an fSTR tier or something it can make the difference appear to be greater than it generally would be - say on a different mob).
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#19 Mar 10 2010 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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BrimstoneFox wrote:
Not all of the equations are linear for starters (in fact I'd say most probably aren't).
I can't think of any that are. That doesn't matter though.

BrimstoneFox wrote:
Quick and dirty numbers obviously have some use and validity, but there's no sense in swearing by them.
Why not? Proof of concept is in parsing if you care to parse.

Trying to flush out the details at best only slightly changes the outcome of the comparison. If that's enough to turn the tables and make one piece better than the other, it will be by such a thin margin that they're essentially sidegrades. Even then, that's assuming you can flush out every x-factor which you already know you can't do (and understandably so!).

I guess I'm content with my "quick and dirty" numbers because they're still fairly accurate to actual numbers, and there's too much variation in the RNG to necessitate such a detailed breakdown in the first place.

For what it's worth, Kparser also calculates "DPS" now, but it's still going to be a rather nebulous term. My last party:

Damage Per Second 
 
Player              Melee DPS   Ranged DPS     WS DPS    Magic DPS    Other DPS    Total DPS 
Bsphil                  40.82         0.00      34.94         0.00         6.63        82.39


Edited, Mar 10th 2010 6:49pm by bsphil
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#20 Mar 11 2010 at 1:41 AM Rating: Good
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BrimstoneFox wrote:
Finally, its obviously the goal to make this as accurate as possible, but I would tend to think some changes (such as the ws delay) will make little difference for comparison sake because it will be equal between both
I know it's a boring topic, but it is actually a very major change in the math and is one of the most significant in a long time.

Take for example,
(a)WS->100+TP in 10 seconds
vs
(b)WS->100+TP in 30 seconds

Not including a 2 second WS pause in (a) causes us to overstate a melee's TP cycle (~DPS potential) by a whopping 20%. In the case of (b), we'd be overstating it by ~7%. Hell, back in the day when ~94% haste was achievable by RC and Apoc, one could literally be doing a full 6 melee hits and getting 100tp before the WS animation was even finished. And essentially never be out of WS animation. As you can see, the implications get exponentially larger as the time required for a TP cycle decreases. For practical application in particular, I can see this being a very big issue for Sam's trying to judge the worth of a 5 hit over a 6 hit build.

I won't do a real comparison, but this is just an example to show again what I mean. Let's take Hagun and put it at 20% equip haste for both a 5&6 hit build, and assume haste / double march, and let's just say 50% hasso/seigan and generalize it to mean 5% for these purposes. So haste total is 60% and delay is 180. 5-hit and 6-hit are meant to include the WS, so the time spent meleeing would only require 4 and 5 hits respectively. For ease let's not consider double attack, etc.

5-hit total time,
(450*0.4)*4/60 = 12 seconds
6-hit total time,
(450*0.4)*5/60 = 15 seconds

This estimates a total WS volume increase (again not including things like med, etc) of 25% (15/12). But in reality with a 2 sec WS pause, the real time it would take to get 100tp would be 14 and 17 seconds. And thus the more accurate increased volume would be 17/14 or ~21.4%. So the estimate was overshot by 3.6%. To anyone that's not very familiar with gear/build comparisons, that might not seem like a whole lot. But for those that are very used to this sort of thing, 3.6% is enough to make/break a "what's best" conclusion. It's huge, actually. Of course, this is just one example.
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#21 Mar 11 2010 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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@Shayama - good point although my presumption is obviously the numbers are closer together to start with. Some details like that make a bigger difference than others, as I've just played with it overtime, I've found some surprising (to me at least) results on how much (or how little) certain factors change the results. Some of which supports conventional forum wisdom, some of which does not.

@bsphil - same response I guess.

Some of it is simply splitting hairs over effective sidegrades.

Of course there are plenty of other uses: figuring out which is most effective stat to merit, deciding if getting +1 gear is worth the effort or not, optimizing food/buffs for a given situation, etc...

Its information, use it wisely.



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#22 Mar 11 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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BrimstoneFox wrote:
Of course there are plenty of other uses: figuring out which is most effective stat to merit, deciding if getting +1 gear is worth the effort or not, optimizing food/buffs for a given situation, etc...
Right, all of which can be very quickly compared the same way gear can. Smiley: lol
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#23 Mar 11 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Trying to compare whole sets is overcomplicating, but comparing single pieces of gear is also oversimplifying.

Dusk+1 is "better" than Homam.. until you're using Apocalypse or cap equipment haste or total haste otherwise. NQ Dusk and Homam hands are a toss depending on if you're capping attack or accuracy.

Perdu Sickle is "better" than Molione's Sickle... until you cap Attack, Accuracy, or both. The prior is more likely than most thought (see: people are retarded and still using old formulas, my link above). Once you've capped both, easy with Pizza and COR at MJSP, I could sh*t in a bucket and it'd be a better weapon than Perdu. Perdu is arguably still 'better' because you can wear Blitz Ring, but I have a standing bit of math that in any fight lasting less than 45 seconds 1% haste won't do sh*t for a high-delay weapon (you never see the extra hit).

Edited, Mar 11th 2010 2:54pm by Raelix
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#24 Mar 12 2010 at 1:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
but I have a standing bit of math that in any fight lasting less than 45 seconds 1% haste won't do sh*t for a high-delay weapon (you never see the extra hit).
You don't have to get an extra swing, you just have to beat someone else's swing.
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#25 Mar 12 2010 at 1:42 AM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Raelix wrote:
but I have a standing bit of math that in any fight lasting less than 45 seconds 1% haste won't do sh*t for a high-delay weapon (you never see the extra hit).
You don't have to get an extra swing, you just have to beat someone else's swing.

Yes, I saw that thread too. Calling it extra DPS is about as legitimate as overkilling the mob with one-hit WS. Go figure both are attributed to SAMs.

GKs are still 20% faster than Scythes.

I think the 'window' of pulling that off with a 528 delay worked out to about 3/10ths of a second going from 61% to 62% haste in one minute fights, only occurring 8.9% of the time. Meaning: Their attack has to fall in that .3 seconds you've advanced yourself for you to steal the kill.

It still reeks of **** to me. The best metaphor I can make is having a really long stoplight at the end of your commute. Sure, you can do 56mph instead of 55mph, but if your commute is only 15 minutes, you've only gained 1320 feet or roughly 16 seconds of lead. If theres a 90 second cycle on the stoplight, you only 'make the light' 17% of the time.

Longer fights are longer commutes.
Longer delays are longer cycles of the stoplight.
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#26 Mar 12 2010 at 1:43 AM Rating: Good
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I suppose more important than DPS is how short a fight is. The shorter, the better, in terms of the purpose of DPS. When you think about it that way, it makes more sense. And if all the DD's had that 1% extra haste, the fight would be shorter every time. Assuming you have a 1/3 chance of being the last one to hit the mob, the fight will be however much shorter 1% haste makes it. Or so that's one way of thinking about it.

The WS Pause thing is a derailment of this thread, but I just came across another situation where it makes a huge difference in calculations (Soboro/Yoichi Sam PT w/ Dnc .VS. w/out).
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#27 Mar 12 2010 at 2:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Haste actually becomes rather relativistic.

The more you have, the more 1% is supposed to help you.

But the more everyone has, the shorter your fights are going to be

Therefore 1% haste actually gets to be less likely to help you in melee, probably balancing out rather well.

it takes some abstract thinking to realize moving 1% faster won't always get you there 1% sooner. You can't deal 1% of a swing's worth of damage extra, you either swing again or you don't.
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