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Perhaps it's time to raise the ante...Follow

#1 Jul 31 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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Ok I have some thoughts on recent events with SE, their customer service and the seemingly "random but systematic" banning taking place.

I have noticed in some threads people have been filing Better Business Bureau complaints in regards to Square-Enix and the way they have been handling customer service issues, especially in regards to said recent bannings.

The Better Business Bureau, as I have noticed, is a private organization and not a government agency. Basically businesses become accredited by them, in return they maintain proper standards of conduct.

NOW... With the recent logs I'm seeing on these forums of customer service citing that line in the TOS: (paraphrased): "We can close your account for any reason or no reason whatsoever." ... However I have also noticed that clause is very commonplace in terms of online services worldwide, so what remedy is there?

At any rate, I am wondering if this would now potentially fall under the jurisdiction and scope of the Federal Trade Commission, in particular the Bureau of Consumer Protection. I'm not as keen on government agencies and their interactions with the general public, especially on matters like this, so if anyone out here has further knowledge or personal experience, do share and discuss.

Also, since someone mentioned the ACLU in another thread, I wonder if the EFF and other online protection groups would also be interested? Particuarly those that have focused on shrinkwrap licensing and online services cases (i.e. Microsoft, etc) in the past.

I still have not been LM-17'd nor has anyone else I know personally or in my linkshell. But I fear it is only a matter of time.

The fact I may be moving soon depending on whether or not I get this job, and moving out of state if I do is beginning to concern me. That and the likelihood of me playing on my laptop where I would go as well as maybe going to a friend's place up here for a weekend or so if that happens. (i.e. High potential for impact).

The deafening silence from Square-Enix regarding these issues is not helping their case any.

Seems to me people are looking for solutions apart from "just take it" and "just don't play and move on." Maybe a shot very close across the bow is what's needed.
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#2 Jul 31 2009 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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1,020 posts
Vaius wrote:
Ok I have some thoughts on recent events with SE, their customer service and the seemingly "random but systematic" banning taking place.

I have noticed in some threads people have been filing Better Business Bureau complaints in regards to Square-Enix and the way they have been handling customer service issues, especially in regards to said recent bannings.

The Better Business Bureau, as I have noticed, is a private organization and not a government agency. Basically businesses become accredited by them, in return they maintain proper standards of conduct.

NOW... With the recent logs I'm seeing on these forums of customer service citing that line in the TOS: (paraphrased): "We can close your account for any reason or no reason whatsoever." ... However I have also noticed that clause is very commonplace in terms of online services worldwide, so what remedy is there?

At any rate, I am wondering if this would now potentially fall under the jurisdiction and scope of the Federal Trade Commission, in particular the Bureau of Consumer Protection. I'm not as keen on government agencies and their interactions with the general public, especially on matters like this, so if anyone out here has further knowledge or personal experience, do share and discuss.

Also, since someone mentioned the ACLU in another thread, I wonder if the EFF and other online protection groups would also be interested? Particuarly those that have focused on shrinkwrap licensing and online services cases (i.e. Microsoft, etc) in the past.

I still have not been LM-17'd nor has anyone else I know personally or in my linkshell. But I fear it is only a matter of time.

The fact I may be moving soon depending on whether or not I get this job, and moving out of state if I do is beginning to concern me. That and the likelihood of me playing on my laptop where I would go as well as maybe going to a friend's place up here for a weekend or so if that happens. (i.e. High potential for impact).

The deafening silence from Square-Enix regarding these issues is not helping their case any.

Seems to me people are looking for solutions apart from "just take it" and "just don't play and move on." Maybe a shot very close across the bow is what's needed.


It's not necessarily being said that the affected people should "just don't play and move on" but rather, voting with one's wallet. SE may be able to ban anyone they choose for any reason they choose, but we, the customer, can in turn put them out of business by simply taking our money somewhere else.

That being said, I really don't think SE will even respond to the bans, citing both the ToS and "security reasons pertaining to internal investigations".
#3 Jul 31 2009 at 10:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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384 posts
Vaius wrote:
Maybe a shot very close across the bow is what's needed.


For some reason I had a vision of a huge cargo ship full of bells steaming its way to America. Then I had a vision of not a shot across the bow, but multiple shots into the bow. Blood, bells, and flaming oil... everywhere.


I really need to find another hobby to fill the void that deleting all content ID's has left...
#4 Jul 31 2009 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
Vaius wrote:
I have noticed in some threads people have been filing Better Business Bureau complaints in regards to Square-Enix and the way they have been handling customer service issues, especially in regards to said recent bannings.

I have been seeing this a bit in the forums too so I got curious and decided to go check how the BBB rated SE. Here are the BBB complaint stats:
Better Business Bureau wrote:
Complaint Closing Statistics The following grid displays the number and responses to complaints over the last 36 months:

No. of Cmpl ____ Type of Response
2 _____________ Making a full refund, as the consumer requested
0 _____________ Making a partial refund
191 ___________ Agreeing to perform according to their contract
8 _____________ Refusing to make an adjustment
69 ____________ Refuse to adjust, relying on terms of agreement
0 _____________ Unanswered
0 _____________ Unassigned
270 Total

http://www.la.bbb.org/businessreport.aspx?companyid=13168063

Oh and for anyone wondering overall company rating is B-
#5 Jul 31 2009 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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353 posts
I filed a complaint on BBB as well, i think we can dive bomb that B- to a more appropriate D or F.
The following is my complaint:

Complaint type: Customer service

Complaint Summary (150 characters maximum): Their Current MMO product "Final Fantasy XI (FFXI)" is cutting off service in what seems to be an arbitrary way.

Describe your problem with Square Enix, Inc (1500 characters maximum): Square-Enix has a Online game (FFXI) that requires a monthly subscription to play. In recent months the company has terminated service to its subscribers for little to no explanation. Calls to their customer support line are often met with resistance or denial, with different sections of the service department (namely the in-game GM and the customer support center) saying the other section has jurisdiction/information. When subscribers attempt to find out the reasoning behind their banning, the company refuses to reveal the criteria for the ban.
Additionally the company has changed the Terms of Service in regards to it's credit card policy with only 1 (one) day notice, leaving subscribers with little time to change payment methods or to ask questions from said customer support line.
In general the customer service representatives are hostile toward subscribers, or oblivious to the actual nature of the service they are representing.

What would you like Square Enix, Inc to do? (500 characters maximum): An open apology to all characters that have been wrongfully banned. As well as revealing under what criteria a subscriber has had his service terminated.
Square-Enix also needs to reinstate such subscribers that, upon review, have been wrongfully terminated.
Also, all changes in the Terms of Service should be given with a 30-day notice, to allow subscribers enough time to review the changes and decide if they wish to continue service.

Tell us about the company’s product or service (70 characters maximum): Final Fantasy XI (FFXI) is a persistent world, subscriber based MMO.


I highly suggest you use a different program and cut/past into the fields as the font size is ridiculously small.
#6 Jul 31 2009 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
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622 posts
Better Business Bureau wrote:
69 ____________ Refuse to adjust, relying on terms of agreement

That doesn't sound like SE at all!... >.>;
#7 Jul 31 2009 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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1,590 posts
Demonye wrote:
I filed a complaint on BBB as well, i think we can dive bomb that B- to a more appropriate D or F.

As if anyone actually cares about the BBB ratings.
#8 Jul 31 2009 at 11:47 AM Rating: Decent
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77 posts
Magicalsquirrel wrote:
It's not necessarily being said that the affected people should "just don't play and move on" but rather, voting with one's wallet. SE may be able to ban anyone they choose for any reason they choose, but we, the customer, can in turn put them out of business by simply taking our money somewhere else.


No, I don't think we can. I mean, theoretically, sure we could. But even if every FFXI player magically quit the game and it died, SE would still be making money from any number of other sources. It's a noble concept, voting with your money, but it's just not realistic in this case. This incident will not put SE out of business.
#9 Jul 31 2009 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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1,020 posts
Kokorozashi wrote:
Magicalsquirrel wrote:
It's not necessarily being said that the affected people should "just don't play and move on" but rather, voting with one's wallet. SE may be able to ban anyone they choose for any reason they choose, but we, the customer, can in turn put them out of business by simply taking our money somewhere else.


No, I don't think we can. I mean, theoretically, sure we could. But even if every FFXI player magically quit the game and it died, SE would still be making money from any number of other sources. It's a noble concept, voting with your money, but it's just not realistic in this case. This incident will not put SE out of business.


No customers, no money, no business. SE can't just magically make money appear out of their @$$. They can't sell a product if consumers won't buy it.
#10 Jul 31 2009 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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374 posts
If anyone is interested here are the links. Filed a complaint against SE on both sites.

Federal Trade Commission
-Bureau of Consumer Protection

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp


Better Business Bureau
of the United States and Canada

http://www.bbb.org



Edited, Jul 31st 2009 3:54pm by Agrias
#11 Jul 31 2009 at 12:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,638 posts
I have a limited knowledge when a government agency is willing to take interest into a conflict between consumer and a seller (firm, company...etc). This doesn't mean it will involve courts that will force a company to do something, pay money or even close down; it could be just simple change in company policy. There are 5 major categories that I know of (these are very very general so take them as a grain of salt) that a government agency will poke its hands into the mess between consumers and a company or a group of company:

#1 Health and Public safety concern. Say, somebody is using rotten meat and cardboard to make some sort of vegetarian meat (it happened in Canada I think) and people get sick because of it. Selling toys with lead-based paint or any thing that can be unsafe for use. Even something with a warning on and consumers have full knowledge of the danger when using it (ex: alcohol, smoking...etc).

#2 Anti-trust, economic inefficiency, unfair competition...etc. Monopoly of some sort. Every company has a certain amount of power (read: monopoly) on their products. Once this power exceed a certain degree that will cause consumer to pay more than what they should, when the company is getting more money than they should at the expense of consumer utility (it's an economic term that is comparable to happiness) and create an unfair barrier of entry that prevents other companies from joining the market. Say, if Blizzard starts buying off all the MMO companies around and increase all the monthly payment of ALL MMO and strong arm new companies from entering the MMO market - that's an anti-trust issue.

#3 Frauds. Selling bad deals to consumers, tell them to agree something they do not have full knowledge of, false advertising, misleading terms of agreement/contract/advertising, unreasonable demands, hidden fees, change of policy/contract/terms without informing the clients...etc. Basically, pretty much anything that prevent a consumer to know what he or she is actually paying or getting into. If any someone can nail SE, it will probably in this area.

Note This is a touchy area since you need to prove that SE had unjustly prevent you from using the service and they are gaining profits by denying you the service. Say, a company selling MMO games for $20 a box with a monthly fee of $5, but they only have a small server that can only sustain 500 people (and they don't have money to expand the service). They decided to ban a bunch of people for no reason just to reduce the load on the server. That would be fraud regardless of their TOS/EULA...etc.

#4 Liability or who's responsible for what? This is where you get a bunch of pretty ridiculous lawsuits but some of them work. In general, it covers defective products, poor quality products and inadequate warning when using the product or services. Pretty much if you are getting unexpected results from the product and you are unhappy with it. Someone can sue SE for poor customer service if he or she can prove that good customer service is a package included into the product they buy (like you are promised with good customer service when buying FFXI). It's not a clear-cut area though since many companies get away with this by shifting the responsible to the consumers. Say, you get banned because they think you are RMT, you couldn't prove otherwise and the company does not wish to spend more resources in helping you resolve the issue because it's not part of the package they sold to you.

NOTE: I think, if the FFXI game box you bought is not usable, you can return it to SE for a refund (if you get banned). If they refuse, it's possible to sue SE based on the fact that you purchased the FFXI game (the box, not the monthly fee) and you did not receive as advertised on the box even when you meet all the requirements, unless SE stated explicitly on the box that the product is not usable if SE deny you of the monthly service.

#5 Privacy. Sometimes you get businesses that can be fairly invasive into your personal life such as debt collector calling you in the middle of the night or security company watching how many times you go to the rest room per day without telling you...etc.

================================================================================

Most companies protect themselves from those issues by shifting the responsibilities on to the consumers and let them agree to certain terms of a contract of some sort (EULA, TOS, private policy...etc). Combine with the fact that you are buying something with little value ($12 a month) so suing the company is not an appealing option since your compensation is not going to be enough to cover the lawyer cost and many lawyers won't be interested in such issue unless they are doing it for fame. This is where activist groups like EFF jump in.

Once an activist group jump in, it's like having a Union to argue for your wages. They will provide anything from advices, counseling to negotiations with the company improving consumer experience and even support of lawsuits for a large group of consumers. They are a lot more effective than 1 person. Imagine all the guys that were banned by SE teaming up to sue SE. They aren't perfect but they will give you better leverage on the table.

Groups like BBB creates bad press for the company since they act like review sites. Most companies respond very very quickly to issue like "Many consumers left unhappy!" when that appear on the news. Whenever you try to buy a game or watch a movie, you will attempt to look for a review of the game. If it's a bad review there is a very good chance that you won't watch the movie or buy the game. BBB is like the review site for investors and other businesses. Bad review prevent investors. Since this give an image that the company is not good overall (esp if it's a pure service company). They aren't just afraid of losing customers but rather they afraid of losing investments. Good sales generates good profit and good profits invite more investments which will allow the company to generate more money in the future.

For example, FFXI has 500k users and SE banned 10k of them for unknown reasons. These people get pissed and say that they won't be buying FFXIV when it comes out. These people go to a consumer activist group and get themselves heard. Naturally, 10k people isn't a lot compare to 490k but since these 10k people are heard, future consumers will be wary of buying FFXIV just because they 'heard' that SE has very bad consumer service and you might lose your account for no reason at all. If future consumers are wary of purchasing, current and future investors will also be wary of investments. This often drive down stocks in the short terms (very very bad for a company).

It's even worse when you have consumers as your enemies. For example, if half of alla's frequent visitors were banned for no reason. Some one new or is returning to FFXI or just wanting to know if they should play FFXIV or not came asking for advice. If he or she gets something like "Don't play this game, SE has very bad customer service...etc" or "Go play Megaten or Starwars"...etc. It will be very very bad for SE

Edited, Jul 31st 2009 4:29pm by kenki

Edited, Jul 31st 2009 4:30pm by kenki
#12 Jul 31 2009 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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3,530 posts
kenki wrote:
For example, FFXI has 500k users and SE banned 10k of them for unknown reasons. These people get pissed and say that they won't be buying FFXIV when it comes out.


That is, if "complete lack of data for several years" can be taken as "SE's subscription numbers never fall." SE releases new Vana'diel censuses but they never give a actual numerical amount of players for anything meaningful, only percentages. Number of crafters, number of jobs: percentages; number with relic, number with Ebisu: finite numbers.

What I mean to say, and I apologise if this is too "derail" in nature, is that it simply occurred to me that we have a complete lack of reliable data for how many players there actually are; FFXIAH would put the number of players much lower than 500k (closer to 350k), and SE's unwillingness to speak suggests there isn't much to brag about (except for "zomg tons of *characters* before Mog Bonanza," as in a somewhat recent announcement).
#13 Jul 31 2009 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Magicalsquirrel wrote:
Kokorozashi wrote:
Magicalsquirrel wrote:
It's not necessarily being said that the affected people should "just don't play and move on" but rather, voting with one's wallet. SE may be able to ban anyone they choose for any reason they choose, but we, the customer, can in turn put them out of business by simply taking our money somewhere else.


No, I don't think we can. I mean, theoretically, sure we could. But even if every FFXI player magically quit the game and it died, SE would still be making money from any number of other sources. It's a noble concept, voting with your money, but it's just not realistic in this case. This incident will not put SE out of business.


No customers, no money, no business. SE can't just magically make money appear out of their @$$. They can't sell a product if consumers won't buy it.


Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, among other things, make money magically appear out of SE's @$$. Your logic is right, but the vast majority of people (at this point, anyway -- who can say for the future) will continue to buy and enjoy SE's games.
#14 Jul 31 2009 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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I spent a good part of the morning looking at US contract law vs. TOS and, unfortunately, we appear to be screwed.

It's a shame that a company that makes such good games can't understand or care about their player base. Actually, it's pretty unreal. It's not SE and Final Fantasy that racks in the money; it's that player base that forks the money over month after month or buys the games that is the fat money cow that is now being ignored.

However, that said, if I am banned for no reason I will file a Small Claims Court action against SE for the money I invested in the game, for the fair market value of the character I built, and for punitive damages for the time invested in my virtual life.

Would I win? Probably not, but I would have the satisfaction of trying. The only thing that might sway a Judge is an implied contract that SE did not abide by. That implied contract being I paid my money every month and SE terminated our relationship without due process.

By the way, any one harmed should look up the attorney's name that is filing the class action suit. If you have been banned and charged during the time of your ban you might have recourse.


Edited, Jul 31st 2009 3:04pm by OldAndWise
#15 Jul 31 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes, I can see this massively wealthy, Japanese-based company quaking in its boots as people report them to the BBB. Jesus, it's a brilliant plan.

I'm sure they are just going to cry themselves to sleep when their BBB rating drops.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#16 Jul 31 2009 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Remember, when investment information is sent out, it is sent along with ratings from different review boards. If a company has an A in stability but an F from the BBB, investors will be less likely to invest due to poor corporate image.
#17 Jul 31 2009 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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Demonye wrote:
Remember, when investment information is sent out, it is sent along with ratings from different review boards. If a company has an A in stability but an F from the BBB, investors will be less likely to invest due to poor corporate image.
PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAA

Yea... yea they will SO totally not invest!

As a former Dell employee, I can tell you that's total ********* Right now Dell's up from where it was, a C+ rating now, but before, it was quite low (D or F). People still bought Dells and Dell stock.

And to show you a massive joke, Microsoft has an A+ rating and McDonald's has no rating.

The BBB has been a joke for a long time now, and any investor that pick their portfolio based on it deserves the money he'll lose or miss out on.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#18 Jul 31 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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OldAndWise wrote:
I spent a good part of the morning looking at US contract law vs. TOS and, unfortunately, we appear to be screwed.


I would suggest consumer law instead.
#19 Jul 31 2009 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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This is already being tried:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/92686-Square-Enix-Facing-5-Million-Final-Fantasy-XI-Lawsuit

A lawsuit may or may not work. Honestly its hard to get more than a money settlement for a lawsuit.

Personally I think a more grass roots mass complaint might work.

See my thread for discussion of this idea.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=1249083820293097958&num=3&page=1
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