I soloed Bst to 75. I have Huberk, woodville axe, snipers, and a lot of other very expensive gear. I did not buy gil, and I sluged it up to 75 earning an average of 1-2k an hour.
Point being, your argument is poor. If exp/h were the end line than you would have a lot more gil buyers and everyone would eventuly play nin, whm, and some sort of DD that gets good invites (used to be rng, don't know what it is now).
Serriously, if all your looking at is the exp/hour than you are missing out on a lot of the great aspects of the game; multipule 75 jobs or not.
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#279
May 09 2006 at 9:36 PM
Ryouken: I am quite neutral. I'm only saying what the repercussions are, or pointing out points people are making. I personally don't care about it all one way or another. The focus of my debate is on how this one guy treated someone, and how he didn't even have decent position and is being a jerk because of it. And yes, I am guilty of acting like him towards him; I tend to be mean to mean people.
You can still have views on something without supporting or rallying against it, you know? I just so happen to be arguing with someone who doesn't like it.
You can still have views on something without supporting or rallying against it, you know? I just so happen to be arguing with someone who doesn't like it.
#280
May 09 2006 at 9:37 PM
This should make my point very clear:
"With respect to game titles operated by the PlayOnline service, including FINAL FANTASY XI, it is specifically prohibited to sell game currency, characters, or any other in-game items for real money or any other consideration for value (known as Real Money Trade "RMT"). This prohibition is expressly referred to in the following two clauses, which are part of the respective agreements which all registered users of the FINAL FANTASY XI and/or PlayOnline services have agreed to abide by:
*PlayOnline Member Agreement: Article 4.4
*FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement: Article 3.1
This prohibition is due to the possibility of fraud during transaction in the real world which may lead to legal sanctions, including possible criminal sanctions, being imposed on those involved in such trade. In addition, Real Money Trade was not initially a part of the design for any of our game titles.
We are already investigating this issue and putting into effect appropriate measures for such actions within the game environment, and we will continue to do so in the future. Players found to be participating in Real Money Trade will be deemed to be in breach of the clauses set out above and will be subject to any appropriate legal sanction. We expressly reserve our rights in the event of such a breach, including the right to cancel the PlayOnline account of any user in breach of the clauses above, without any prior notice to such user"
... Can u guess where that quote is from? (Ill give u a hint: it starts with a "T", an "O" is in the middle, and it ends with "S")
... U can get banned.
EDIT: If that is the case, then I apologize Gweivyth...
Edited, Tue May 9 22:46:04 2006 by Ryouken
"With respect to game titles operated by the PlayOnline service, including FINAL FANTASY XI, it is specifically prohibited to sell game currency, characters, or any other in-game items for real money or any other consideration for value (known as Real Money Trade "RMT"). This prohibition is expressly referred to in the following two clauses, which are part of the respective agreements which all registered users of the FINAL FANTASY XI and/or PlayOnline services have agreed to abide by:
*PlayOnline Member Agreement: Article 4.4
*FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement: Article 3.1
This prohibition is due to the possibility of fraud during transaction in the real world which may lead to legal sanctions, including possible criminal sanctions, being imposed on those involved in such trade. In addition, Real Money Trade was not initially a part of the design for any of our game titles.
We are already investigating this issue and putting into effect appropriate measures for such actions within the game environment, and we will continue to do so in the future. Players found to be participating in Real Money Trade will be deemed to be in breach of the clauses set out above and will be subject to any appropriate legal sanction. We expressly reserve our rights in the event of such a breach, including the right to cancel the PlayOnline account of any user in breach of the clauses above, without any prior notice to such user"
... Can u guess where that quote is from? (Ill give u a hint: it starts with a "T", an "O" is in the middle, and it ends with "S")
... U can get banned.
EDIT: If that is the case, then I apologize Gweivyth...
Edited, Tue May 9 22:46:04 2006 by Ryouken
#281
May 09 2006 at 9:42 PM
Scholar
37 posts
CellyO... You're a well read, learned individual, that's apparent. But it doesn't make it ok for you to declare that others are dim-witted, or in a sense below you. So far you seem to be keeping your cool in this debate, which is respectable. Yet I must point out one or two things If I may.
"Yes, I'm a little bit selfish, but that's because I'm a cold, logic-driven person for the most part."
This is no excuse what so ever for any action taken on your part... verbal or physical. You can't keep using that as an excuse for your negative actions, why don't you just change it, so that there is no need for an excuse? Having one doesn't justify your reason for being, as you said "cold." Overall CellyO... you're no better than any person on this forum, and there's no argument to prove otherwise. You can go on and on about how you are smarter than MonxDoT, but maybe thats your only strong point in life... How about post a picture of yourself, or some kind of artwork, or something that would matter to you... Let them have a go at your weak point... All in all... Let's just stop this? You can't argue opinions... CellyO has hers, and everyone else has theirs... Theyre arguing with you because of your opinion and youre arguing with them because of their opinions... I support the closing of this thread.
"Yes, I'm a little bit selfish, but that's because I'm a cold, logic-driven person for the most part."
This is no excuse what so ever for any action taken on your part... verbal or physical. You can't keep using that as an excuse for your negative actions, why don't you just change it, so that there is no need for an excuse? Having one doesn't justify your reason for being, as you said "cold." Overall CellyO... you're no better than any person on this forum, and there's no argument to prove otherwise. You can go on and on about how you are smarter than MonxDoT, but maybe thats your only strong point in life... How about post a picture of yourself, or some kind of artwork, or something that would matter to you... Let them have a go at your weak point... All in all... Let's just stop this? You can't argue opinions... CellyO has hers, and everyone else has theirs... Theyre arguing with you because of your opinion and youre arguing with them because of their opinions... I support the closing of this thread.
#282
May 09 2006 at 9:55 PM
G:
Get a reality check bub. You've failed to disprove any simple fact I've made. Emotion, just like opinions on ethics, has jack squat to do with the facts I have elucidated and recorded. You can try to tip toe around the facts all you want. The facts are irrefutable and the analysis based on simple economic analysis is also irrefutable.
You're just too stupid to see that the Kirin's Osode example is exactly the same as any *possible* example whatsoever.
G:
Again, you're too stupid to see that exactly the same items exist before and after. The only thing different is the items have been shifted from one group of people to another group of people. The items have been shifted from non cheaters to cheaters because of cheating gil buying. It's that simple, period. There is no new group of better equipped players because of gil buying. There is a different better equiped and an exactly proportionally gimped group after the effect of cheating. The better equipped players are now the cheaters and the worse equipped players are now the non cheaters. There is no net change is better equipped servers whatsoever. It's just a different group of players, CHEATERS, have benefitted, and a non cheaters have been harmed.
Yup, there's a flip side to how non cheaters are additionally screwed over by cheaters. Because RMT 24/7 fishes and makes sushi I get much less from my fish and sushi than would be the case without cheaters. That holds exactly so for any and every item which is produced or farmed by non cheaters. Non cheaters are double hit: higher prices paid and lower prices received for stuff they produce which is also produced by gil sellers.
CO:
You're delusional. There is still just pure facts and irrefutable consequences of those facts.
CO:
And your argument is 100% flawed BS because there is zero net effect change on exp parties. Cheaters are better equipped and non cheaters are proportionally worse equipped precisely because of cheating. All you are doing is rewarding the cheaters and punishing the non cheaters. No opinion, no error, 100% irrefutable extension of logic from 100% irrefutable FACTS.
CO:
Check it out. You admit in your previous post that it is a 100% irrefutable fact that it is indeed stealing and then call a 100% irrefutable, indisputable fact "narrow-minded"? Your *** has been whooped real gooooood. You're just looking more and more like an ignorant blockhead that can't face reality.
CO:
Sorry sweetie, but I've *ABSOLUTELY* irrefutably listed irrefutable effects and simple irrefutable consequences of cause and effect. ABSOLUTELY. Feel the Econ P-O-W-E-R. It has pwned your weak "philosophy" which is completely irrelelvent to the economic consequences I have merely shown. It's irrefutable. It's absolutely irrefutable. Guess you might want to change majors while you still have time.
You are so stupid it's incredible. Your EXP is 100% unaffected. It's just affected by cheaters instead of non cheaters to the same degree it would have been effected without any cheating. You're merely rewarding cheaters and punishing non cheaters. The same exact items are equipped after the cheating as before the cheating. They are just equipped by different players.
CO:
Now you're just l-y-i-n-g. What is the title of this thread created by you? {Hmmmmm} "I support gil buying". You lose, yet again.
CO:
Sorry, but I've just *proved* the opposite. Either/OR is 100% allness. Empty Set/Full Set is 100% allness. You lose. Damn, it's amazing how much a priori knowledge bugs you. Guess what sissy? It's the only knowledge. Ooooooh, too much for your little brain to comprehend? You're the idiot for suggesting otherwise.
CO:
Wow, what a neat trick! You've failed to disprove a single fact. You've failed to disprove a single logical extension of any fact, and you think you've done anything whatsoever, except make yourself look even more foolish? Amazing! Do it again! Do it again! LMAO.
Quote:
Because people receive the same emotion over something, you exploit that to "prove a point" that is, in reality, quite baseless.
Get a reality check bub. You've failed to disprove any simple fact I've made. Emotion, just like opinions on ethics, has jack squat to do with the facts I have elucidated and recorded. You can try to tip toe around the facts all you want. The facts are irrefutable and the analysis based on simple economic analysis is also irrefutable.
You're just too stupid to see that the Kirin's Osode example is exactly the same as any *possible* example whatsoever.
G:
Quote:
Also, CellyO never denied what gil buying was. She said she supported it and its repercussions in favor of avoiding what would be without it there.
Again, you're too stupid to see that exactly the same items exist before and after. The only thing different is the items have been shifted from one group of people to another group of people. The items have been shifted from non cheaters to cheaters because of cheating gil buying. It's that simple, period. There is no new group of better equipped players because of gil buying. There is a different better equiped and an exactly proportionally gimped group after the effect of cheating. The better equipped players are now the cheaters and the worse equipped players are now the non cheaters. There is no net change is better equipped servers whatsoever. It's just a different group of players, CHEATERS, have benefitted, and a non cheaters have been harmed.
Quote:
And no, if gil sellers never went and camped certain items, it wouldn't be on the auction house even close to as much. A lot of people would avoid going to get it.
Yup, there's a flip side to how non cheaters are additionally screwed over by cheaters. Because RMT 24/7 fishes and makes sushi I get much less from my fish and sushi than would be the case without cheaters. That holds exactly so for any and every item which is produced or farmed by non cheaters. Non cheaters are double hit: higher prices paid and lower prices received for stuff they produce which is also produced by gil sellers.
CO:
Quote:
Fact: Your post just now was a logical fallacy, the entire thing. The fallacy you so blatantly used in every sentence is called "Straw Man," where the worse debater constructs a fictional, weaker version of the original argument and then dismantles it, declaring victory.
You're delusional. There is still just pure facts and irrefutable consequences of those facts.
CO:
Quote:
Here is my original argument.
"I acknowledge that gil buying does hurt players, but I feel that it has a positive effect on EXP parties, and in my mind that's a worthy tradeoff."
"I acknowledge that gil buying does hurt players, but I feel that it has a positive effect on EXP parties, and in my mind that's a worthy tradeoff."
And your argument is 100% flawed BS because there is zero net effect change on exp parties. Cheaters are better equipped and non cheaters are proportionally worse equipped precisely because of cheating. All you are doing is rewarding the cheaters and punishing the non cheaters. No opinion, no error, 100% irrefutable extension of logic from 100% irrefutable FACTS.
CO:
Quote:
If you think buying an item from the auction is stealing just because you didn't get it, you're one narrow-minded kid.
Check it out. You admit in your previous post that it is a 100% irrefutable fact that it is indeed stealing and then call a 100% irrefutable, indisputable fact "narrow-minded"? Your *** has been whooped real gooooood. You're just looking more and more like an ignorant blockhead that can't face reality.
CO:
Quote:
... No. This is not a black and white world, stop dealing in absolutes. I told you in my first post that there are downfalls, I named the downfalls, I explained them in great detail, and my overall conclusion was that my EXP was more important to me. Not that it was fine to buy gil. I encouraged people to do what they had to do to improve their characters.
Sorry sweetie, but I've *ABSOLUTELY* irrefutably listed irrefutable effects and simple irrefutable consequences of cause and effect. ABSOLUTELY. Feel the Econ P-O-W-E-R. It has pwned your weak "philosophy" which is completely irrelelvent to the economic consequences I have merely shown. It's irrefutable. It's absolutely irrefutable. Guess you might want to change majors while you still have time.
You are so stupid it's incredible. Your EXP is 100% unaffected. It's just affected by cheaters instead of non cheaters to the same degree it would have been effected without any cheating. You're merely rewarding cheaters and punishing non cheaters. The same exact items are equipped after the cheating as before the cheating. They are just equipped by different players.
CO:
Quote:
I never once made any insinuation that gil buying is okay.
Now you're just l-y-i-n-g. What is the title of this thread created by you? {Hmmmmm} "I support gil buying". You lose, yet again.
CO:
Quote:
Again, Allness is a fallacy. I told you not to use it.
Sorry, but I've just *proved* the opposite. Either/OR is 100% allness. Empty Set/Full Set is 100% allness. You lose. Damn, it's amazing how much a priori knowledge bugs you. Guess what sissy? It's the only knowledge. Ooooooh, too much for your little brain to comprehend? You're the idiot for suggesting otherwise.
CO:
Quote:
Okay, you're done, slither back to whatever troll pit you came from and leave the topic for people who know what they're saying. I've so completely destroyed every fiber of your case by pointing out the rampant, blatant lack of logic, that you have no recourse.
Wow, what a neat trick! You've failed to disprove a single fact. You've failed to disprove a single logical extension of any fact, and you think you've done anything whatsoever, except make yourself look even more foolish? Amazing! Do it again! Do it again! LMAO.
#283
May 09 2006 at 10:00 PM
Quote:
I understand the fact that gil buying messes up the economy. I saw it firsthand over Christmas when Behemoth Hides were 20 million gil each on my server. I broke a pair of Unicorn Leggings someone was having me make, and they quit the game because their life savings was gone in that one second. I felt bad about that, that inflation can ruin a person the way it ruined my client. But, life goes on. Inflation is only temporary, and only half caused by gil buying anyway. The other half is Japanese players who don't buy gil, but have an infinite supply, and will pay whatever it takes to get an item. Hence why Gun Belts jumped from 30,000 to 7 million gil in one sale on my server. Risatan to Misapon is definitely not a gil buyer sale, I can assure you. Although gil buyers are responsible for part of the problem, and I acknowledge that, it's not the whole deal or even close.
yea economy getting effed up the *** is main reason why i hate gilbuying, and if their's a gilbuyer in my LS/party, not gonna pile on the insults as if he is the soul one to blame; will only do that if he's a jackass/bad player thinkin he knows his job.
a very good post CellyO. It's a challenge putting one's exact thoughts on computer screen, but you did it, with seemingly no room for arguement.
damn economy...you will be mine Mithran Scimitar, in time, in time. D:
#284
May 09 2006 at 10:00 PM
I'll add one more thing to this post. DoT's information on how it changes the economic dynamics of the game is correct. Buying gil does have an adverse effect on those who chose not to. He is very much correct in pointing out that the increase in gil has no effect on the increase of high demand items. If V-claw only drops say 10% of the time and people camp it round the clock, it still will only drop 10% of the time regardless of the amount of money on the server.
Finally even if the market becomes saturated with a particular item, other items will grow in demand (and ultimately price), and therefore work in favor of someone willing to shell out real money than someone who works in game.
In any case once demand reaches a rate greater or equal to max production prices start going up, and the more expendable money there is on a server (i.e. the kind of money you get from buying gil) the greater the rate at which the price increases.
This is not opinion. Whether you agree with buying gil or not is a completely different matter. I for one do not support it. That is my own opinion; but it is one that is partly based on economic facts.
Finally even if the market becomes saturated with a particular item, other items will grow in demand (and ultimately price), and therefore work in favor of someone willing to shell out real money than someone who works in game.
In any case once demand reaches a rate greater or equal to max production prices start going up, and the more expendable money there is on a server (i.e. the kind of money you get from buying gil) the greater the rate at which the price increases.
This is not opinion. Whether you agree with buying gil or not is a completely different matter. I for one do not support it. That is my own opinion; but it is one that is partly based on economic facts.
#285
May 09 2006 at 10:07 PM
Quote:
You can't argue opinions... CellyO has hers, and everyone else has theirs... Theyre arguing with you because of your opinion and youre arguing with them because of their opinions... I support the closing of this thread.
Absolutely incorrect, 100% wrong, Sensetsu. Reread the thread. I have no opinion. I have facts, and consequences of those facts. 100% absolutely irrefutable facts, absolutely 100% irrefutable cause, and absolutely 100% irrefutable effects. Seriously, reread and grasp the fine underlying masterpiece of a display you've just bore witness to. You might dramatically increase your comprehension and cognition of ... everything.
#286
May 09 2006 at 10:09 PM
Quote:
Let's see them address the concrete Kirin's Osode example of the Osode going to a HNMLS member with 0 points insead of to the HNMLS member with 100 points because the 0 points member is a gil buying cheater. They lost, and they lost hard. All in good fun. Hope you enjoyed. :P
Would've been better if you used something that's actually marketted fairly often.. like, say, a V.claw, Damascene cloth/ingot or something, but whatever. I think I've seen one {Kirin's Osode} {Sell?} shout in my nigh lifetime of tele-whoring.
#287
May 09 2006 at 10:22 PM
It doesn't matter what any particular example you use Hitsugaia. The effect, the consequence, is precisely the same for any item you want to throw in. Any item whatsoever. Kirin's Osode, V-Claw, Sole Sushi. Any item whatsoever. The effect is exactly 100% irrefutably the same always and everywhere. If they cannot answer the Kirin's Osode example, they cannot answer any other possible example whatsoever. They are all exactly the same.
#288
May 09 2006 at 10:23 PM
Dear Ronald,
You need to hear it this way, because it's not going to get in to your skull otherwise. You refuse to follow examples all the way through and refuse to admit that similarities do not equate conclusion. Your facts, which your inflated head is depriving the oxygen of this thread with, are wrong, incomplete, and/or out of context. That is why you fail. You're just plain wrong as far as entirety goes. I'm not even going to bother going back and showing you why, because I've done it several timers already.
Now I'm not saying your opinions are wrong. I'm saying your assertions are. I've displayed multiple times why your assertions are baseless or incorrect. It's not getting into your conceited little head. About your facts: You. Are. Wrong.
And let's cover this again. By wrong I mean:
a) Incomplete theorizing.
b) Putting things out of context.
c) Just being plain wrong.
As for b, CellyO made a list of logical fallacies for you. Most of which you have used again, you closet clown. I've dealt mostly with a. No one can help you with c but yourself.
You made opinions about why someone is stupid, how they deserve to be punished, and if something is wrong. That's all there ever was about you and your opinions. You couldn't even figure this out.
So lame.
You need to hear it this way, because it's not going to get in to your skull otherwise. You refuse to follow examples all the way through and refuse to admit that similarities do not equate conclusion. Your facts, which your inflated head is depriving the oxygen of this thread with, are wrong, incomplete, and/or out of context. That is why you fail. You're just plain wrong as far as entirety goes. I'm not even going to bother going back and showing you why, because I've done it several timers already.
Now I'm not saying your opinions are wrong. I'm saying your assertions are. I've displayed multiple times why your assertions are baseless or incorrect. It's not getting into your conceited little head. About your facts: You. Are. Wrong.
And let's cover this again. By wrong I mean:
a) Incomplete theorizing.
b) Putting things out of context.
c) Just being plain wrong.
As for b, CellyO made a list of logical fallacies for you. Most of which you have used again, you closet clown. I've dealt mostly with a. No one can help you with c but yourself.
You made opinions about why someone is stupid, how they deserve to be punished, and if something is wrong. That's all there ever was about you and your opinions. You couldn't even figure this out.
So lame.
#289
May 09 2006 at 10:48 PM
LOl Gweivyth, my display is pure simple supply and demand, and nothing else.
Before cheating:
Supply = Items + Gil
Demand = Demand
After cheating:
Supply = Items + Gil + Dollars
Demand = Demand
You're just too stupid to see it. You get an 'F' as your Economics grade. I have to once again conclude as I have many times before, the stupidity of otherwise seemingly intelligent posters when it comes to comprehending basic economics is laughably pathetic. Here is yet another display of precisely that stupidity recorded for posterity. But what's more pathetically laughable is how these completely clueless morons will spout with such vehement attitude when they are so obviously full of error. They are the real trolls. Always have been.
Before cheating:
Supply = Items + Gil
Demand = Demand
After cheating:
Supply = Items + Gil + Dollars
Demand = Demand
You're just too stupid to see it. You get an 'F' as your Economics grade. I have to once again conclude as I have many times before, the stupidity of otherwise seemingly intelligent posters when it comes to comprehending basic economics is laughably pathetic. Here is yet another display of precisely that stupidity recorded for posterity. But what's more pathetically laughable is how these completely clueless morons will spout with such vehement attitude when they are so obviously full of error. They are the real trolls. Always have been.
#290
May 09 2006 at 11:26 PM
*bang*head*on*desk*
God. Are you so oblivious that you don't realize I don't know that? I am in no way, shape, or form saying that gil selling is not destructive. There are, however, things it provides that people see as benefits. Whether or not these benefits outweigh the repercussions is strictly an opinion. You can't tell people what they like or don't like.
Fucking figure that out already. You tried to make someone out to be a loser because they supported gil buying, then you went on a sole crusade making idiotic comparisons and making accusations about how they thought it was beneficial to the community. Not all of your so-called facts were even realistic, and you continue to think they are even after you were shown they weren't. That's what I gave you a hard time over. Someone says orange, you say banana, then you sit there and giggle with your hand in your mouth and another between your pressed legs about how everyone is more retarded than you.
Do everyone a favor and go step on the spade of a scattered shovel.
Edited, Wed May 10 00:37:00 2006 by Gweivyth
God. Are you so oblivious that you don't realize I don't know that? I am in no way, shape, or form saying that gil selling is not destructive. There are, however, things it provides that people see as benefits. Whether or not these benefits outweigh the repercussions is strictly an opinion. You can't tell people what they like or don't like.
Fucking figure that out already. You tried to make someone out to be a loser because they supported gil buying, then you went on a sole crusade making idiotic comparisons and making accusations about how they thought it was beneficial to the community. Not all of your so-called facts were even realistic, and you continue to think they are even after you were shown they weren't. That's what I gave you a hard time over. Someone says orange, you say banana, then you sit there and giggle with your hand in your mouth and another between your pressed legs about how everyone is more retarded than you.
Do everyone a favor and go step on the spade of a scattered shovel.
Edited, Wed May 10 00:37:00 2006 by Gweivyth
#291
May 09 2006 at 11:36 PM
I gotta say:it takes a lot of "cajones" to express the issue about gilbuying;you came in honest and upfront about it,no gray areas in your thread.Rate up girl!and yes you're right:the
World of Vanadiel is just as corrupt as the real world!so
for all the whiners,suck it up Princess,cuz that's the truth
and theres F.A. we can do about it!~^
World of Vanadiel is just as corrupt as the real world!so
for all the whiners,suck it up Princess,cuz that's the truth
and theres F.A. we can do about it!~^
#292
May 10 2006 at 12:05 AM
We could all theoretically spend as much RL money as possible buying gil and it will have zero effect on increasing in game items. More NMs and more HNMs will not pop because gil sellers are increasing the competition for them. There are programmed probability limits to everything which is dropped or purchased from npcs in game. No amount of money can change that maximum limit. In other words, at any given time, supply is finite, while simultaneously at any given time demand is infinite. That's why economy exists. The effect of spending the most RL money as possible (precisely what the gil selling companies want) is that it will only change the order and distriubtion of who gets what when.
XP parties won't have better gear. They will have exactly the same gear. Servers won't be "richer" better equipped. They will be equipped exactly the same. The only difference is those who spend the most RL money will have the best items rather than those who play the game the best. In the end people will have just wasted more RL money than before (assuming they would play that pissing contest non-game). The OP won't get better xp, totally defeating her rationale for advocating gil buying in the first place. In fact if people started spending rl money en masse she might actually personally get worse xp than before as she personally becomes the relatively gimply equipped player, being a poor college student and all.
Reward distributions are determined within the game, reward distributions are determined from without the game, or from a combination of the two (which currently is the case). But it is an irrefutable consequence effect that when reward distributions are effected from outside the game, those reward distributions are different than what they otherwise would be if they were soley determined by in game achievment. That's irrefutable logically deduced factual effect. That's why I win, and the OP loses the argument.
The whole "ethics" sharade was nothing but puff pomp. It was me who showed that with economic reasoning. The rewards of the "game" are skewed toward those who cheat. This benefits the cheaters and harms the non cheaters. It's a mere transferance of ownership of items by using a outside game monetary supply. Simple irrefutable fact.
XP parties won't have better gear. They will have exactly the same gear. Servers won't be "richer" better equipped. They will be equipped exactly the same. The only difference is those who spend the most RL money will have the best items rather than those who play the game the best. In the end people will have just wasted more RL money than before (assuming they would play that pissing contest non-game). The OP won't get better xp, totally defeating her rationale for advocating gil buying in the first place. In fact if people started spending rl money en masse she might actually personally get worse xp than before as she personally becomes the relatively gimply equipped player, being a poor college student and all.
Reward distributions are determined within the game, reward distributions are determined from without the game, or from a combination of the two (which currently is the case). But it is an irrefutable consequence effect that when reward distributions are effected from outside the game, those reward distributions are different than what they otherwise would be if they were soley determined by in game achievment. That's irrefutable logically deduced factual effect. That's why I win, and the OP loses the argument.
The whole "ethics" sharade was nothing but puff pomp. It was me who showed that with economic reasoning. The rewards of the "game" are skewed toward those who cheat. This benefits the cheaters and harms the non cheaters. It's a mere transferance of ownership of items by using a outside game monetary supply. Simple irrefutable fact.
#293
May 10 2006 at 12:21 AM
Infinite demand doesn't exist.
#294
May 10 2006 at 12:28 AM
In all of your economic banter, you refuse to make any room what-so-ever for human margin. A lot of players simply would not buy things without gil-buying, but would continue to play the game. The people who are really, irrefutably (I used your favorite word, don't get too jealous) hard-working, legitimate, great players will still get their items. This is evidenced by the reality of the game. You live in an imaginary world where gil buying has a much worse effect than it actually does.
I would agree with your crusade if it was as detrimental as you make it out to be. It's clearly not, because the things you say are never a problem. No one ever complains that the items that aren't there. You also completely ignore that these items don't disappear. As the community grows, the items remain. Unlike the real world, the resources are very much limitless. We can't run out of Ochiudo's Kote like we can run out of mineral fuels.
Admittedly, a society's size can outgrow its supplies. That isn't happening in this situation. That's why you've been repeatedly beaten to death about your assertions. They're not realistic, they're not present, and they're not close to being either. You also continue to impress these factors as cumulative as though the combination of what happens to everyone is equal to what happens to one individual. Any detrimental effect is dispersed, just like any single effect is combined. You're being one-sided. You're putting things out of context. And you suck at your fake major.
There are more factors to the economy than merely the current and the economy itself. You can't simply decide to ignore the fact people will change with the loss of gil-buying. It is 100% irrefutable, as you so love to put it, that many people would continue playing without gil buying but simply be ill-equipped instead. The people who work for their items are still well-equipped. This will never change.
No one can deny, that without gil sellers, it would still be extremely difficult and expensive to obtain anything in this game. No one is denying that they add a slight degree of difficulty to obtaining given items. You, however, are refusing to accept that you are wrong about the degree of people who would be ill-equipped without them.
This is why people support gil buying. They disagree with you. Understand that economics in the real world has different dimensions than it does in a game that doesn't run out of a resources. It merely has a cap on them, governed by time, which is not even close to being threatened. The opinion of many is that your proactive attitude is simply unnecessary and overzealous at this point in time.
Again for insurance. You are completely and utterly wrong that items are taken away from legitimate players. They aren't. No one agrees with you that items aren't constantly and readily available. Very, very few disagree that the problems of monopoly at item sources would vanish without gil sellers. Almost everyone knows and admits that they would be replaced by players. Your statement about artificial competition is worthless because it represents the excess to a soft cap, if you will. Here's a Ronaldism: It doesn't matter that your bucket is overflowing with water, because it's already full. Your bucket overflowing and your bucket being full have the same effect. The same thing ends up happening.
Tail between your legs yet, or is your head not leaving enough room?
I would agree with your crusade if it was as detrimental as you make it out to be. It's clearly not, because the things you say are never a problem. No one ever complains that the items that aren't there. You also completely ignore that these items don't disappear. As the community grows, the items remain. Unlike the real world, the resources are very much limitless. We can't run out of Ochiudo's Kote like we can run out of mineral fuels.
Admittedly, a society's size can outgrow its supplies. That isn't happening in this situation. That's why you've been repeatedly beaten to death about your assertions. They're not realistic, they're not present, and they're not close to being either. You also continue to impress these factors as cumulative as though the combination of what happens to everyone is equal to what happens to one individual. Any detrimental effect is dispersed, just like any single effect is combined. You're being one-sided. You're putting things out of context. And you suck at your fake major.
There are more factors to the economy than merely the current and the economy itself. You can't simply decide to ignore the fact people will change with the loss of gil-buying. It is 100% irrefutable, as you so love to put it, that many people would continue playing without gil buying but simply be ill-equipped instead. The people who work for their items are still well-equipped. This will never change.
No one can deny, that without gil sellers, it would still be extremely difficult and expensive to obtain anything in this game. No one is denying that they add a slight degree of difficulty to obtaining given items. You, however, are refusing to accept that you are wrong about the degree of people who would be ill-equipped without them.
This is why people support gil buying. They disagree with you. Understand that economics in the real world has different dimensions than it does in a game that doesn't run out of a resources. It merely has a cap on them, governed by time, which is not even close to being threatened. The opinion of many is that your proactive attitude is simply unnecessary and overzealous at this point in time.
Again for insurance. You are completely and utterly wrong that items are taken away from legitimate players. They aren't. No one agrees with you that items aren't constantly and readily available. Very, very few disagree that the problems of monopoly at item sources would vanish without gil sellers. Almost everyone knows and admits that they would be replaced by players. Your statement about artificial competition is worthless because it represents the excess to a soft cap, if you will. Here's a Ronaldism: It doesn't matter that your bucket is overflowing with water, because it's already full. Your bucket overflowing and your bucket being full have the same effect. The same thing ends up happening.
Tail between your legs yet, or is your head not leaving enough room?
#295
May 10 2006 at 12:30 AM
Okay, child, I've already crushed you. There is no way around logical fallacies, no matter how hard you weasel. You fail, simply on presentation, and that is irrevokable. You do not understand debate. This is an irrefutable fact, simply based on how you present yourself.
Let me explain debate to you. In debate, the better argument wins. In debate, an argument in favor of **** genocide can and often does win against one in opposition. Debates are based entirely on presentation, and your presentation is flawed for the 9 factual reasons I listed. Therefore, you are done, you have nothing left to say. Do you want me to do that to you again? I will.
You listed a "fact," but presented it like a fool. There is no Allness, that is fundamentally true no matter what, no matter how, no matter when. By saying that gil buying hurts every legitimate player, you lose. I stand here before you as a legitimate player who is not hurt by gil buying, and there are many more in this topic, therefore your "fact" is disproven. Completely, utterly, now and forever. If you ever so much as try to say this again, you are just humiliating yourself to an unrealistic degree.
I am a legitimate player. I am not hurt by gil buying. Your Allness "fact" is permanently null and void. It's done. Gone. Goodbye. That is an actual fact. Your case is through.
You're done, there's nothing left of you. Your entire case is founded in fallacy, so no matter how much "fact" you try to present, you are going to lose the debate. It's absolutely true to the ends of the earth. Debating is all presentation, 100%. I'm debating, so I'm destroying you. You, although you have a point (that I acknowledged repeatedly, long ago, before you even replied), have no presentation. You are unfounded.
Allow me to point the fallacies in your post out. You can ignore them if you want, but they're the true ettiquette of debate, and if you disobey, you lose. Consider this a lecture. And I'm not going to include Allness, you already know how rampantly guilty of that one you are.
Fallacy #1: Slothful Induction. This is where, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the conclusion is denied. I systematically dismantled your entire ability to debate, and you ignored it and went back to the same one note you've been using all along. I don't need to disprove your fact (a fact that I have acknowledged), because I have disproven your entire writing style and foundation. A fact (yes, fact) which you have conveniently ignored.
Fallacy #2: Fallacy of Exclusion. This one is self-explanatory. My damning evidence that you do not know how to argue is entirely omitted, despite the fact that it can and does change the entire outcome.
Fallacy #3: Inconsistency. Asserting contradictory statements are both true. So, gil sellers fish 24-7 and drag down your profit from cooking and fishing. But, you assert later in that paragraph that higher prices are paid. If you are being forced to lower your prices to compete, higher prices are not being paid. If higher prices are being paid, you are not losing any income or being forced to lower your prices. Both statements cannot be true, it's a logical impossibility.
Fallacy #4: Irrelevant Conclusion. An argument in defense of one conclusion instead proves another. Namely: "You're delusional, there is still just pure facts and irrefutable consequences of those facts." My conclusion is that you do not know the first thing about debating. Debates are all presentation, and a quote-unquote fact can be squashed instantly just on presentation alone. In disagreeing with me, you commit the fallacy of exclusion and ignore my entire argument, thus proving me right. You're out of your league. Stop now, I've humiliated you over and over and over, and it will just continue until you realize that rhetoric is everything in a debate.
Fallacy #6: Prejudicial Language. We've been over this, it's the assertation of right and wrong and the assumption that there is a black and white world. You cannot make a conclusion that gil buying is 100% wrong and hurts everyone, just as I cannot make a conclusion that it's okay. That is delving into the realm of opinion, and using a player's choice of playstyle as derogatory and heroic remarks is once again portraying the impossible black and white world, a world which does not and cannot exist, and a fallacy. You cannot classify people as "good" and "bad" in a debate without eating yourself alive.
And you're done. Again. Ignore these fallacies one more time and you forfeit any claim you have to any recourse, child. They do you in, and THAT is a fact. You are completely done. You lost your argument simply based on the way you presented it, and it's over. For good. Failure to acknowledge the fallacies that demolish you will be an official concession of your ignorance.
Notes:
1) You contradict your own case that there would be the same amount of items as ever without gil selling with your own case about sushi. This acknowledges and admits to what I said earlier about 24 hour farming gil sellers and increasing supply. Heck, try this fact on for size. Gil sellers find Beastmen's and Kindred's Seals. Gil sellers do the BCNMs. Venomous claws, Damascus ingots, Utsusemi: Ni and Erase scrolls, Vermillion cloaks are all introduced into the economy that would not be there without the gil sellers. You cannot assert that there would be the same amount of items regardless, when it's an absolute fact that more players = more items being generated by way of simply doing BCNM. You can make an unfounded case that I can't conclusively disprove about whether or not Ochiudo's Kote would be farmed 24-7 with or without gil sellers. You cannot make the claim that their Kindred battles are not bringing more scorpion harnesses into the game, or their BCNMs are not bringing in more Peacock Charms. Your entire argument fails, child, and you cannot and will not deny it ever again. Gil sellers *are* increasing the supply of scorpion harnesses, they *are increasing the supply of Peacock Charms, Haubergeons, Vermillion Cloaks and scrolls of Erase. It's undeniable, and I guarantee you, you can't and won't even try.
I'm not even factoring in ENM, which gil sellers can and do exploit without the use of seals, adding more Forager's Mantles, Toreador's Rings, Woodsman's and Corse capes, innumerable items, into the economy.
Your point is dead and gone, you have no case about item distribution. Not only do they make money more available to lazy players who would otherwise be gimp, they DO introduce new copies of items into the economy that would NOT be there without them.
Irrefutable, eh? Well, I just completely and utterly refuted it in every sense of the word. Try that on for size, child, you're so out of your league here. Your argument about item distribution is dead.
2) Please, stop it. I did not say stealing, that's you putting words in my mouth. I acknowledged that they take items that legitimate players could buy, not that they steal them. "Take away" /= "steal," please use your vocabulary. You are the only one who's ever called it stealing, and I smashed your definition of theft to tiny pieces.
3) For the last time, supporting something doesn't mean I think it's fine. You're dealing in absolutes again, do I really need to lecture you on all the fundamental flaws of doing so? I support stem cell research. I don't feel entirely right about dissecting fetuses to accomplish this, but the ends justify the means. See what I mean? A person can, and often should, support something they don't think is perfectly fine. It's all a matter of the strengths outweighing the weaknesses. Are you getting this yet? This is your last chance to.
4) Point me to an instance where I've used either-or. Do you even know what the fallacy means? Did you just Google "logical fallacies" then drop this would-be bombshell on me? You're the only one who's ever dealt in absolutes in this topic, child, and that is what either-or is. Either you fight against gil buyers, or you're just as bad as they are. Ringing any bells? It should, you wasted like five posts on it.
You're done. There's nothing left to you. I've refuted your irrefutable fact. I've debunked your status as a relevant debator. I've proven everything you've thrown at me to be utter garbage, and the only one reading this thread who doesn't know it is you. Goodbye, have a nice life, you're finished. I will declare victory in one sentence, then walk away laughing at you in my next reply if you fail to comply with the demands I've laid out for you.
Acknowledge the Kindred/BCNM battle fact. Concede that it is true and you are wrong.
Acknowledge the logical fallacies you are flagrantly ignoring. Admit that your technique is flawed and move on.
Acknowledge that at no time have I said gil buying is okay, nor have I said the word "stole" except in a derogatory context aimed at your ill-informed opinion (yes, opinion :3). Come to terms with the fact that you are hearing what you want to hear and not what I'm actually telling you.
Bow out gracefully and go back to trying to intimidate other people, who won't destroy you. This is your last chance, because one way or another, this post is the end of your argument.
Edited, Wed May 10 01:50:05 2006 by CellyO
Let me explain debate to you. In debate, the better argument wins. In debate, an argument in favor of **** genocide can and often does win against one in opposition. Debates are based entirely on presentation, and your presentation is flawed for the 9 factual reasons I listed. Therefore, you are done, you have nothing left to say. Do you want me to do that to you again? I will.
You listed a "fact," but presented it like a fool. There is no Allness, that is fundamentally true no matter what, no matter how, no matter when. By saying that gil buying hurts every legitimate player, you lose. I stand here before you as a legitimate player who is not hurt by gil buying, and there are many more in this topic, therefore your "fact" is disproven. Completely, utterly, now and forever. If you ever so much as try to say this again, you are just humiliating yourself to an unrealistic degree.
I am a legitimate player. I am not hurt by gil buying. Your Allness "fact" is permanently null and void. It's done. Gone. Goodbye. That is an actual fact. Your case is through.
You're done, there's nothing left of you. Your entire case is founded in fallacy, so no matter how much "fact" you try to present, you are going to lose the debate. It's absolutely true to the ends of the earth. Debating is all presentation, 100%. I'm debating, so I'm destroying you. You, although you have a point (that I acknowledged repeatedly, long ago, before you even replied), have no presentation. You are unfounded.
Allow me to point the fallacies in your post out. You can ignore them if you want, but they're the true ettiquette of debate, and if you disobey, you lose. Consider this a lecture. And I'm not going to include Allness, you already know how rampantly guilty of that one you are.
Fallacy #1: Slothful Induction. This is where, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the conclusion is denied. I systematically dismantled your entire ability to debate, and you ignored it and went back to the same one note you've been using all along. I don't need to disprove your fact (a fact that I have acknowledged), because I have disproven your entire writing style and foundation. A fact (yes, fact) which you have conveniently ignored.
Fallacy #2: Fallacy of Exclusion. This one is self-explanatory. My damning evidence that you do not know how to argue is entirely omitted, despite the fact that it can and does change the entire outcome.
Fallacy #3: Inconsistency. Asserting contradictory statements are both true. So, gil sellers fish 24-7 and drag down your profit from cooking and fishing. But, you assert later in that paragraph that higher prices are paid. If you are being forced to lower your prices to compete, higher prices are not being paid. If higher prices are being paid, you are not losing any income or being forced to lower your prices. Both statements cannot be true, it's a logical impossibility.
Fallacy #4: Irrelevant Conclusion. An argument in defense of one conclusion instead proves another. Namely: "You're delusional, there is still just pure facts and irrefutable consequences of those facts." My conclusion is that you do not know the first thing about debating. Debates are all presentation, and a quote-unquote fact can be squashed instantly just on presentation alone. In disagreeing with me, you commit the fallacy of exclusion and ignore my entire argument, thus proving me right. You're out of your league. Stop now, I've humiliated you over and over and over, and it will just continue until you realize that rhetoric is everything in a debate.
Fallacy #6: Prejudicial Language. We've been over this, it's the assertation of right and wrong and the assumption that there is a black and white world. You cannot make a conclusion that gil buying is 100% wrong and hurts everyone, just as I cannot make a conclusion that it's okay. That is delving into the realm of opinion, and using a player's choice of playstyle as derogatory and heroic remarks is once again portraying the impossible black and white world, a world which does not and cannot exist, and a fallacy. You cannot classify people as "good" and "bad" in a debate without eating yourself alive.
And you're done. Again. Ignore these fallacies one more time and you forfeit any claim you have to any recourse, child. They do you in, and THAT is a fact. You are completely done. You lost your argument simply based on the way you presented it, and it's over. For good. Failure to acknowledge the fallacies that demolish you will be an official concession of your ignorance.
Notes:
1) You contradict your own case that there would be the same amount of items as ever without gil selling with your own case about sushi. This acknowledges and admits to what I said earlier about 24 hour farming gil sellers and increasing supply. Heck, try this fact on for size. Gil sellers find Beastmen's and Kindred's Seals. Gil sellers do the BCNMs. Venomous claws, Damascus ingots, Utsusemi: Ni and Erase scrolls, Vermillion cloaks are all introduced into the economy that would not be there without the gil sellers. You cannot assert that there would be the same amount of items regardless, when it's an absolute fact that more players = more items being generated by way of simply doing BCNM. You can make an unfounded case that I can't conclusively disprove about whether or not Ochiudo's Kote would be farmed 24-7 with or without gil sellers. You cannot make the claim that their Kindred battles are not bringing more scorpion harnesses into the game, or their BCNMs are not bringing in more Peacock Charms. Your entire argument fails, child, and you cannot and will not deny it ever again. Gil sellers *are* increasing the supply of scorpion harnesses, they *are increasing the supply of Peacock Charms, Haubergeons, Vermillion Cloaks and scrolls of Erase. It's undeniable, and I guarantee you, you can't and won't even try.
I'm not even factoring in ENM, which gil sellers can and do exploit without the use of seals, adding more Forager's Mantles, Toreador's Rings, Woodsman's and Corse capes, innumerable items, into the economy.
Your point is dead and gone, you have no case about item distribution. Not only do they make money more available to lazy players who would otherwise be gimp, they DO introduce new copies of items into the economy that would NOT be there without them.
Irrefutable, eh? Well, I just completely and utterly refuted it in every sense of the word. Try that on for size, child, you're so out of your league here. Your argument about item distribution is dead.
2) Please, stop it. I did not say stealing, that's you putting words in my mouth. I acknowledged that they take items that legitimate players could buy, not that they steal them. "Take away" /= "steal," please use your vocabulary. You are the only one who's ever called it stealing, and I smashed your definition of theft to tiny pieces.
3) For the last time, supporting something doesn't mean I think it's fine. You're dealing in absolutes again, do I really need to lecture you on all the fundamental flaws of doing so? I support stem cell research. I don't feel entirely right about dissecting fetuses to accomplish this, but the ends justify the means. See what I mean? A person can, and often should, support something they don't think is perfectly fine. It's all a matter of the strengths outweighing the weaknesses. Are you getting this yet? This is your last chance to.
4) Point me to an instance where I've used either-or. Do you even know what the fallacy means? Did you just Google "logical fallacies" then drop this would-be bombshell on me? You're the only one who's ever dealt in absolutes in this topic, child, and that is what either-or is. Either you fight against gil buyers, or you're just as bad as they are. Ringing any bells? It should, you wasted like five posts on it.
You're done. There's nothing left to you. I've refuted your irrefutable fact. I've debunked your status as a relevant debator. I've proven everything you've thrown at me to be utter garbage, and the only one reading this thread who doesn't know it is you. Goodbye, have a nice life, you're finished. I will declare victory in one sentence, then walk away laughing at you in my next reply if you fail to comply with the demands I've laid out for you.
Acknowledge the Kindred/BCNM battle fact. Concede that it is true and you are wrong.
Acknowledge the logical fallacies you are flagrantly ignoring. Admit that your technique is flawed and move on.
Acknowledge that at no time have I said gil buying is okay, nor have I said the word "stole" except in a derogatory context aimed at your ill-informed opinion (yes, opinion :3). Come to terms with the fact that you are hearing what you want to hear and not what I'm actually telling you.
Bow out gracefully and go back to trying to intimidate other people, who won't destroy you. This is your last chance, because one way or another, this post is the end of your argument.
Edited, Wed May 10 01:50:05 2006 by CellyO
#296
May 10 2006 at 12:40 AM
ok this thread has officially reached "circle jerk" status.
#297
May 10 2006 at 12:43 AM
Quote:
ok this thread has officially reached "circle jerk" status.
[True Strike]
Just whip them out and measure them already.
Nobleblade ╬ Remora
#298
May 10 2006 at 12:49 AM
Eh, that little spat is done now. Maybe we can get back on topic, and away from me making an example of Monx. I'm sorry you all had to witness that, but if someone replies with venom, they'll get venom back. There will be no intimidation in my thread. <.<
The thread was made to present opinions for and against, not to insult people and make empty threats to hack their accounts because you have a disagreement. I wasted a few hours on this person, but it had to be done. There's nothing I despise more than people attacking a post with malicious and unrelated intent.
The thread was made to present opinions for and against, not to insult people and make empty threats to hack their accounts because you have a disagreement. I wasted a few hours on this person, but it had to be done. There's nothing I despise more than people attacking a post with malicious and unrelated intent.
#299
May 10 2006 at 1:00 AM
Ew, ok, when I saw this :
1. I'll keep it short, child.
2. Bust some scientific evidence on me again, child …
3. You only factor half the equation, child.
4. I know much more about economics than a single-minded, one-sided child such as yourself.
5.I'll be back in five hours for your quote-heavy, substance-light reply, child.
6. Okay, child, this has gone on long enough.
7. Don't dabble in logic or you're going to get what you have coming to you, child.
8. I've earned more in this game than you could ever imagine, child.
Same cheap tactic over and over again, is that your defense mechanism?? ;o
I thought: “wait a darn minute, where have I this before ;o ?†Well, it turns out that our “dynamic duo†(Alleged CellyO & Gweivyth) has stirred “controversy†before.
Previos post, you go girl!
Sorry, for some reason all of your “debates†always end up in a flame-fest, and you overusing the term “child.†; ; Seriously, if you guys need attention you should visit this SITE and take his advice.
Man this is a lame thread and I hope it dies soon, hell, I’m lame too! I should be with my gf ; ; /yells “Honey, I’ll be with you in a sec, ok?... No, I don’t want to wash the dishes again ;(â€
*Note, I’ve never had a negative encounter with the aforementioned characters in Gilgamesh.
CellyO wrote:
1. I'll keep it short, child.
2. Bust some scientific evidence on me again, child …
3. You only factor half the equation, child.
4. I know much more about economics than a single-minded, one-sided child such as yourself.
5.I'll be back in five hours for your quote-heavy, substance-light reply, child.
6. Okay, child, this has gone on long enough.
7. Don't dabble in logic or you're going to get what you have coming to you, child.
8. I've earned more in this game than you could ever imagine, child.
Same cheap tactic over and over again, is that your defense mechanism?? ;o
I thought: “wait a darn minute, where have I this before ;o ?†Well, it turns out that our “dynamic duo†(Alleged CellyO & Gweivyth) has stirred “controversy†before.
Previos post, you go girl!
Sorry, for some reason all of your “debates†always end up in a flame-fest, and you overusing the term “child.†; ; Seriously, if you guys need attention you should visit this SITE and take his advice.
Man this is a lame thread and I hope it dies soon, hell, I’m lame too! I should be with my gf ; ; /yells “Honey, I’ll be with you in a sec, ok?... No, I don’t want to wash the dishes again ;(â€
*Note, I’ve never had a negative encounter with the aforementioned characters in Gilgamesh.
#300REDACTED,
Posted: May 10 2006 at 1:06 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Totally not denying the excessive use of the word child. XD
#301
May 10 2006 at 1:21 AM
I really can't figure out where that attention thing is coming from. I saw my best friend make a post, and as usual, there was some crazy following her around and insulting her/making threats. I can't stand that sort of thing, so I spoke up.
I'm under the impression you know someone on the server or something who hates one or both of us because one or both of us got into a debate with one of them. If that's the case, I think your snide posts are kinda lame. If it's not the case, I still think they're lame. You don't know us or anything.
If you didn't mean them to be subtly offensive and I'm misunderstanding, then hey, my sincere apologies.
I'm under the impression you know someone on the server or something who hates one or both of us because one or both of us got into a debate with one of them. If that's the case, I think your snide posts are kinda lame. If it's not the case, I still think they're lame. You don't know us or anything.
If you didn't mean them to be subtly offensive and I'm misunderstanding, then hey, my sincere apologies.
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