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RNG's in HNMLSFollow

#1 Jul 07 2005 at 12:37 PM Rating: Default
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I have never posted anything before here but I do have a general question that I would like to get everyone feedback on. Especially RNGs that are currently in a HNMLS.

Recently several friends and I joined a newly started HNMLS. (it has only been around for about 2 months) Their rules were simple and items are given out on a point system and if you can use the item. Fair enough right?
Well points are accumulated by being in sky helping the LS, IE: You helped farm pop items for 6hrs in sky you got 6pts ect.
We got around to killing gods and recently we were finally able to kill Kirin. At first they wanted to sell the Shinning Cloths which made a few WHMs kinda upset if you know what I mean. So they decided that the WHM with the most points(minimum50) would be allowed to lot the shinning cloth, and that then would reset their points.
Ok so far not to bad right.
Well heres the part that upset me. For the Osodes (every RNGs dream) the leader said that there was "4 MAIN RNGs" (leader showing favoritism ~_~;) in the LS
(currently there are about 8-10RNGs total that actually show up) These 4people were given the Osodes with our regard to their total points (although their points did get reset to zero)After the "4 MAIN RNGs" received their Osodes the leader then stated that the next Osodes that dropped will be given to the people with the highest points and if they can wearit.
IE: RNGs do not get first choice on the Osodes. The 75 WARs MNKs BRDs SAMs in the LS would now be able to get the Osodes over all the RNGs. as long as they had the points for it.
Does this make any of you RNGs upset yet?
Well this is my question, if the LS is point based then why the heck did 4 RNGs get it first with out regard to their points (The leader had already stated to the LS several times before we were even able to beat Kirin that these 4 people are the first to get the Osodes no matter what) Why pick favorites then turn around and say "Ok now its back to a point system again good luck all you RNGs in the LS I hope you save up those points for a long time, maybe you'll get lucky"?

I am not a RNG in fact I have never even unlocked RNG yet >_<; But I am not oblivious to how much RNGs do for a HNMLS they by far spend the most money and they work hard for ever pop item, and every GOD that is killed.
(and in that LS die the most as well)
I fail to see how a leader can pick 4 RNGs lock them in for an Osodes and then go back to a point system. It should be one way or another.
Either all RNGs get first choice on the Osodes willing that they have points and that they are 75.
Or ANY one who can wear it and ANY one with the points gets the Osodes.
NO PICKING FAVORITES
NO 4 MAIN RNGS (if you a RNG you work hard and spend a lot of money anyways)
NO SAYING THESE PEOPLE GET THEM OSODES FIRST BECAUSE I SAID SO.
Now I could be way out of line. Like I said I don't even have RNG unlocked but I am not a noob I have 75SMN,70BRD,67DRG,65RDM NONE of which really qualify for anything that Kirin drops. So I am not posting this out of greed but I am in fact posting it out of concern that if this is the way all HNMLS's are then ***** it I don't want to be a part of any.
Sorry for the long post but I would appreciate anyone's feedback on this EXCEPT the "4 MAIN RNGs" and the LS leader of course you guys would be a little bias ^-^;;

EDIT: Below is the LS rules
http://www.neveraftergaru.proboards7.com/index.cgi?board=Business&action=display&thread=1115211302
Once I reread the LS Rules I realized that its kinda of sketchy on what the LS should be doing with the drops. Its not 100% point based rules but what happened the other day certainly does fit with in the rules either.


Edited, Thu Jul 7 20:05:58 2005 by ShiroWolf
#2 Jul 07 2005 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
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it's stupid, just quit the LS.

you should get another one easily.
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#3 Jul 07 2005 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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The fact that you say there are 8-10 RNG in the LS and the leader decides that 4 get precedent over the others shows he is clearly playing favorites.

Worse, using his own logic the next drops should have gone to the 'lesser' RNG before being opened up to the general LS. So he wasn't playing favorites to those RNG, he was playing favorites directly to those 4 players.

Obviously you have had your first taste of why I despise so many HNMLS. The majority seem to be run according to the rules of 7th grade Studnt Council.


Good luck finding a new one.
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#4 Jul 07 2005 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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Actually it's my LS and the reason I called them the 4 main rangers is because they are at just about every event and helped me build up the LS from the ground up. They got "favoritism" as a thank you for teaching all the newer members...many of whom only exp'd in sky before joining the LS.

The RNG in question is Worthlessone. He attended a fair amount of events, but was with the LS for only 1 month or so and got the Crimson hands abj and Sieryu's Kote if I remember correctly. It's not like I shafted him, he just lost it when I told him future osodes will be based on points.

1 hr = 1point, I've said it 100 times that your points are a pure reflection of your work. Just becuse you are a RNG soed not give you preference over other jobs who could also benefit from such a piece of equipment. WAR MNK BRD SAM RNG etc all have some use for it.

Some people have cashed in their points for gil and some decided to hold points for equipment. This is their reward for hard work, some would rather have gil. It's not easy taking 40 people and teaching them how to farm and kill, then getting them the things they want/need.

Just because someone is a RNG doesn't make them entitled to whatever they want. Sadly the amount of RNG on Garuda has become 10x what it was pre-COP and I did not want to give a new RNG (worthlessone) preference over someone who was there for the whole 2 months trying to get an osode. THOSE 4 MAIN RANGERS WERE THE BACKBONE OF THE LS SINCE DAY 1. THE RNG WHO LEFT WAS STILL PRETTY NEW There are members who were there for the same amount of time as him that accumlated twice the amount of points as him. RNG shouldn't get preference when others work harder, that's my beef as a BLM who pretty much helps others to get mitts and...o yeah nothing.

Ironically enough he was the next one to get Osode based on the points after that night, but he threw a fit and made a stink so we kicked the drama out of the house. I'm sending Shirowolf and Worthlessone their share of the gil tonight so I'm not shafting them either. Hate me, hate my sytem, go mooch off someone else's work.

What kills me is when people feel entitled to things when they show up for MAYBE half of the planned events (usually when it directly benefits them). Shirowolf go join MPK or Stelvia (they'll take you but I doubt they'll take Worth) and good idea on dragging your drama **** out to the main forums. I try to take care of people fairly, and it isn't easy. Go make your own LS with your little boyfriend and see who gets the drops. It's not easy trying to appease 40 people, and I ******* hate whiners. bte nice 180 you pulled on us last night guys...

-Hop

(sorry for the semi-rant, but it ****** me off when people only tell half of the story to make others look bad while making themselves seem like angels)
#5 Jul 07 2005 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Nice to hear both sides. AS they say, 3 sides to every story: yours mine and the truth. But good to see none the less.

IMO the preference thing is understandable as presented, but in my view still not exactly just for the rest of the LS. but at least I understand where you are coming from.

personally neither of my LS has members I consider 'the back bone'. Do I have some who help more than others? Yep. Does this place them somehow above the others in importance, preference or anything? Not a single bit.

Not condoning or condemming. Just my 2 gil.
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#6 Jul 07 2005 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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By the way I love RNG's...helpful, unselfish, teamplaying RNGs. Too bad its the bad apples that ruin the reps of all the good ones.


#7 Jul 07 2005 at 1:28 PM Rating: Default
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/out-of-topic
Well, I don't know anything about HNMLS's, but.... that point system doesn't make any sense.

I'll take your whm example. Lets say the situation is as follows: WhmA has 200 pts, WhmB has 50 pts. LS kills one Kirin. Yay, shining cloth drops. WhmA lots and gets it, and loses 200 pts. LS kills another Kirin. Yay, another shining cloth drops. WhmB lots and gets it, and loses 50 pt. Please tell me I misunderstood... please, please.

Sorry, had to ask about that, it sounds so weird. /em hides scared of all the HNMLS's and their drama.
/out-of-topic end

On the actual topic, I agree that there's no reason that rngs should get anything over any other job that could use it just because they spend gil and have to do a lot against gods (blame squeenix for making melees hit for nothing and ranged attacks nof affected... maybe it'll change with the update)... you chose your job. I'm not going to comment on the "playing favorites" part, because I don't know about the LS and I wasn't there when it happened, so I can't possibly know the full story.
#8 Jul 07 2005 at 1:37 PM Rating: Default
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My whole point was there should have never been 4 MAIN RNGs if they in fact are the backbone in the LS then their points should prove that right?
You should have left the Osode completely open to who ever can wear and who ever had the highest points plain and simple like everyother drop was. What makes those 4 any better then anyone else? The points would show their hard work right? That is the whole reason you have a point system to reward other for their hard work. Why did you have to CHOOSE them? Bassed on your system no one should have to question it. My issue was that YOU PICKED THESE 4. You told everyone that they are getting the osodes first and that is that. You didnt say they have the highest points or they are able to wear it and have the highest points. You just plain out said they get the Osodes first end of story.
If you want to have your LS bassed on points, base it on points and thats should make everyone happy. Dont say "these people help more so I want them to get the Osodes first". If they cashed out their points last month then that means they had the EXACT same points as everyone else this month. That doesnt put them ahead of anyone.
And furthermore I never said names. I am speaking on my own accord I don't need you to toss in Worth just because you think it was him that was mad at you. I am, in fact the one who thinks it is unfair that you can't stick to your point rules. I am not bashing you and I am not trying to make you look bad. I did not tell half the story so don't get mad at me or anyone else for what you did.
I agree that those 4 RNGs do work hard and helped the LS out alot. BUT the simple fact is you said the LS was point based right?Then let it be point based dont just pick those 4 people because you think they do a better job contributing to the LS thats an opinion that can be objected to. POINTS on the other hand you can't really object to can you?
#9 Jul 07 2005 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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Those 4 had the highest points anyways Shirowolf, it was posted on the forums. The only reason KM didn't take the first one is becuase he is too **** nice :p

Also, about the WHM points issue...it works out ok since our highest WHM had 70 points when she got the 1st cloth and I'm pretty sure the others will be 50-70points when they get theirs as well.

I don't need to defend myself anymore, you obviously weren't happy so you left. Kudo's to you. I don't and can't force people to stay. If people didn't like the lotting rules they shouldn't have joined in the first place.

We try to be like family and take care of one another, but I guess that's not good enough for some. Go to the other HNM shells on our server and tell me what you think of the people there...I'm done with this conversation, get your counseling from people outside of the LS if it makes you fell better, I'm done with yuo after the gil is sent. Good bye
#10 Jul 07 2005 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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I have no idea why there isn't set amount of points per item and why Shinning cloths and Osodes are a complete reset of points. But what you say is true, I never thought of it that way but now I am very glad I am not a WHM or RNG ^-^;;
#11 Jul 07 2005 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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All I am saying is you stated that they get the Osodes no matter what, This was before we even were able to beat kirin. When the Shinning Cloth dropped you looked at the point list and said Gina had the highest points she gets the cloth. THAT is fair.
But for the Osode drops it was different you told us:
"This is the Osode order:Xy,Shua,Enoeht,KM"
You never ONCE stated Xy has the most points he gets first Osode
You made an Osode drop order for 4 people there is NO WAY you could know their FUTURE points especially since the 4 osodes spanned JUN-JUL
I don't think you should ever have PICKED them like I said if you would have stated:
"Soandso has the highest points they get the osode"
Then there would have been no doubt to your actions.
But YOU PICKED them. That in my opinion shows favoritism.
#12 Jul 07 2005 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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For the leader of the LS
Quote:
Noun
1. favoritism - an inclination to favor some person or group


Well, that doesn't help much. What is "favor?"
Quote:
Verb
1. favor - promote over another; "he favors his second daughter"


You favor those who helped you build the LS (they just happen to be RNG's) you can't claim that you don't. Since they helped you build the LS you automatically gave them *the best* body piece in the gear. Would you have done it if one of those weren't a RNG? I'd be willing to bet that you started the LS with more than yourself and the 4 RNG's. Either way, you showed favortism and, in my opinion, thats just not right. Linkshells put a point system into effect so that ANYONE who participates enough can acquire an item. If you have a LS point system and someone wants a RA/EX piece of gear that is useful for them, its there choice. In this case, anyone with points should have been allowed to get the item in question (Kirin's Osode.) If only those 4 have the points to get it, so be it. But who is to say someone that spends 100 hours farming in sky hasn't put as much effort forth as those who helped you start the linkshell?

To the OP
It's clearly favoritsm. No matter how you cut it. I'd talk to the leader and tell him to change his ways, or I'm out. If my LS leader did that I'd have some serious issues. If people meet the critia to get an item, they should have an equal chance as anyone else.

EDIT : You should really listen to what members are telling you... espically if you are having a lot of people leaving. Simply remaining bull heading and on track of "If you didn't like the way we did it you should have left." is the wrong way to go about it. Adapt and change your methods if your crew isn't happy.

Edited, Thu Jul 7 15:10:54 2005 by Trinitee
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#13 Jul 07 2005 at 2:13 PM Rating: Default
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I agree with you about the favoritism thing.

I deeply disagree with your idea that the osode is a ranger prize, every job that can wear it should have the same chance to get it.

Edit: Yeah the leader seems a complete idiot, you don't just invent rules overnight.

Edited, Thu Jul 7 15:24:29 2005 by Ilean
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#14 Jul 07 2005 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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The OP lost my respect when he insinuated that RNGs work harder than anyone. Giving someone preference just because they play RNG is stupid and if my LS did that I'd leave.

The OP said that the leader made it clear before they even got the claim that those 4 RNG would get the first Osodes. Yes that's favoritism and everyone knew it was there going in. Too late to complain about it now.

If the point system awards players for their contribution then it makes sense that any player with enough points can lot on the drop, not just RNG.

It would also make sense to make each drop a person wants to lot on cost a fixed amount of points. So, you'd spend your points for the right to lot on a drop not just loose all of the points you have.

Sounds fair to me.
#15 Jul 07 2005 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm sorry if I made it seem like I ment that ONLY RNGs deserve the Osode or that they work HARDER. That infact is not what I ment.
I just ment that they do work hard and spend alot of gil. I don't think I ever said they were better then any other job or class, or that they work any harder then the next.
The reason I put such an emphisis(sp?) on RNGs is because in that LS they do have priority over items IE:CrimsomGauntlets,Seiryu Kote, and originally it was stated that they would have priority on Osodes as well.
I am not saying that it was right Im just saying that is how the LS is set up.
In the LS there is specific items that have a job priority according to the leader.
Which actually was an issue for me When a brand new BLM who was there with our LS for the first time was allowd to have Zmitts over me, even though I had already had well over a months worth of points accumulated. Because BLM>SMN for Zmitts ~_~;
Needless to say yes I did get the mitts after all BLMS recieved them first and YES the BLM who got the mitts over me left the LS right after /(>.<)\
#16 Jul 07 2005 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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I'm just gonna turn QM on from now on and say F the abjurations and take a wind crystal to the next osode so that I don't have to listen to crap like this anymore.

That way there is no favoritism or complaining. Moral of the story is: Can't keep everyone happy all the time no matter how hard you try. Some people will always find something wrong everything, that's just what keeps them ticking...

Is shining cloth the NQ desynth for Osode? only one way to find out
#17 Jul 07 2005 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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Making up rules as you go is why alot of HNMls' fail.

As a leader, you came up with an idea of a points system as a fair way to prevent leeching within the ls. You earn points for your time and effort helping the ls. Thats great, I'm a fan of this system.

Now for point systems to work, items must have assigned values right? What was the assigned value of Osode and Shining Cloth? Because you're relatively new linkshell and are advancing quite well, it looks to me like people haven't got the points needed for these items?

You as leader need to hold on to these items until people have the amount of points needed to purchase them. Even if you've posted job priority on it,(which is so wrong) nothing should be given out until enough points are accumulated. And should be available to the first person to collect said amount of points.

Edited, Thu Jul 7 16:02:16 2005 by Vaala
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#18 Jul 07 2005 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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If those 4 RNGs helped build the LS and were there from day 1 I don't see where the issue is. Those who have been the longest and work the hardest should be first in line.
#19 Jul 07 2005 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
He could also mean that those 4 rangers have been the most loyal or been there the longest or participate the most. A backbone per say.
I know it really sucks when you give someone something then they run off to another ls immediatly after receiving the item they wanted. And that's happened in my ls A number of times. Item's are given out in order to strengthen your ls not for personal gain. And when you give someone something and they leave its a tremendous waste of time for everyone who participated in getting the item to begin with. Not to say anything about the people in your ls because
I obviously don't know them but this could have something to do with the reason they got taken care of first.
#20 Jul 07 2005 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm just gonna turn QM on from now on and say F the abjurations and take a wind crystal to the next osode so that I don't have to listen to crap like this anymore.

'atta boy. Destroy something of value to teach us allakhazam'ers a lesson. It will really hurt me if you actually decide to do this.

Quote:
That way there is no favoritism or complaining.

Yes, there is favoritsm. You said "These 4 get the Osode, no matter what." That, my friend, is favoritsm. No matter how you want to slice it.

Quote:
Moral of the story is: Can't keep everyone happy all the time no matter how hard you try. Some people will always find something wrong everything, that's just what keeps them ticking...

No, people don't like to see favoritsm. Treat people fairly and they will have no right to complain. If you had let everyone who had enough points lot on the Osode, I'm sure a lot of us wouldn't give sympathy to the person(s) who lost the lot.

Quote:
Is shining cloth the NQ desynth for Osode? only one way to find out

Once again, it will really hurt me if you decide to do that. Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic... I swear.
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#21 Jul 07 2005 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
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Favouritism should be shown to those who have been there the longest and worked the hardest. Why should JoeBob who's been in the LS for a month get to lot (regardless of points) against MrUber who's been with the shell from the get go?
#22 Jul 07 2005 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Favouritism should be shown to those who have been there the longest and worked the hardest. Why should JoeBob who's been in the LS for a month get to lot (regardless of points) against MrUber who's been with the shell from the get go?


Favoritsm should not be shown to people, simply because they have "been around longer." I've been in my linkshell for over a year and half. I was one of the original members, consquently, I should get any god drop I want... right? No! I show up for god farming when I can (which isn't very often with a 30 hour/week job and full time in college.) The items should go to people who put the time into getting god items to pop the gods. THIS IS WHY POINT SYSTEMS WERE CREATED. They were made to reward people who put the effort into getting the LS to the god fight. If I was farming non-stop to help the LS fight gods, and I had over 100 points... then I have every right to lot on the item, regardless of my time in the linkshell.

You say "regardless of points" when it is NOT regardless of points. It should be completely reliant on points. If you have the points for the item, you can lot on it. If not, then you can't. If no one has the points for the RA/EX item, then ANYONE can lot.

To simply say, "Oh... this item dropped but no one has enough points, so I'm giving it to Bob... because he has been in the linkshell the longest." is simply bad leadership. Reward those who put the effort into making the LS better, not those who have simply been there the longest.
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#23 Jul 07 2005 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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80.5 3rd osode
120 4th osode by choice
82 2nd osode
88 1st osode

Next closest...37...the ranger who left...anyone else who had WAY more than 50 points couldn't wear it anyways (BLM & PLD) Our Ninjas electerd to take gil over osode...yeah fscking favoritism at its finest. He's crying over something we put a 50point minimum value to. I'm so unfair...

People hate having to wait, that's what there is to it.

Trinitee you're awesome and I wish I could be more perfect like you. I should level SAM up just to be like you then brag about how much sky farming I've done...wooptidoo~

At least if I desynth the osode to a shining cloth the WHMs will be happy, and I can tell you that they don't ***** like 2 of these RNG who thought they deserved the world.
#24 Jul 07 2005 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Im in this LS. The system is actually very very fair. Worthless and Shiro threw a ***** fit. They were handled by points correctly. If they had checked the website instead of crying like pussys theyd of seen it was handled according to the rules that were setup in the begining. All changes to these rules are decided by the ls leadership and they make it easy for the ls to know if anything has a chance of changing. The ls is very fair on every account. Its all fair. Not our fault they threw a fit. You cant keep everyone happy
#25 Jul 07 2005 at 4:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Trinitee wrote:

Favoritsm should not be shown to people, simply because they have "been around longer."


Yes, it should. People who have been in the LS from the start have obviously put more time and effort in, prior to a points system being put in place. If longevity and effort put into the shell prior to the point system was put in place as giving points in the OPs linkshell, they would have dwarfed the newbie members anyways, it's the same shi[/b]t. I'd never join a HNMLS and expect an Osode after a month or before anyone who came before me. To expect that is just stupidity.
#26 Jul 07 2005 at 4:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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When i read the topic i was so sure this would be a RNG wont be wanted in HNM's after the next patch. ^^


But after reading this. I am on engspot side.
Favoritism is good and bad, depending on wich kind.

1. Giving someone a item to thank them for building up the LS.
Is "good" favoritism. They also bought it with their points.

2. Giving someone an item just because hes the RL best friend of the leader. Is bad favoritism.



I dont like point systems at all. I am for giving the item to the one that deserves it, and can have use for it. This way a THF can save up for Osode and get it before a MNK(Wich osode is best for).

I dont like people thats like "I have been here a while, but i havent gone to many events. But i am a RNG, and i need a osode, so i have to get one, or its not fair" kind of people. Just like the OP.

engspot did nothing wrong in giving the osodes to those RNG's.
And it seems to me, that you are doing sky pretty often.
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