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Kiyo's Juice BarFollow

#1 May 11 2005 at 7:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,368 posts
***The main point is buried in the last paragraph, another casuality of my writing style.*** I decided to write a simple little rant about how slavish devotion to Yagudo Drinks represents just one more cookie-cutter that this game offers, but decided to make a far more complete mini-guide about Drinks.

Welcome to Kiyo's Juice Bar.

LINK. This link will help you if you want to buy a drinks from an NPC quickly and efficiently.

LINK. This chart pwns for a simple, graphically elegant comparison of Drinks. (Side Bar under Database, Food > Drinks)

Chart of drink effects: (It's ripped off from the above, and took way too long to format)
Rate is the amount regained per three seconds, Duration is in minutes.

...........................................................................................
Name	         Rate   Duration  Total     Crafting Cap	Crystal	Ingred 
One MP Juices 
Orange Juice	MP:1	1:30	30	Cooking 10	Water	Saruta Orange x4 
Apple Juice	MP:1	2:15	45	Cooking 20	Water	Faerie Apple x4 
Tomato Juice	MP:1	3:00	60	Cooking 43	Water	Rock Salt, Mithran Tomato x3 
Pineapple Juice	MP:1	4:00	80	Cooking 30	Water	Kazham Pinapple x2 
Two MP Juices 
Grape Juice	MP:2	1:30	60	Cooking 50	Dark	San d'Orian Grape x4 
Melon Juice	MP:2	2:15	90	Cooking 40	Water	Watermelon, Thundermelon 
Yagudo Drink	MP:2    	3:00	120	Cooking 60	Dark	Yagudo Cherry, Buburimu Grape x3 
Vampire Juice	MP/HP:2  1:30	60	Cooking 90	Water	Mithran Tomato, Red Terrapin, Rolanberry, Faerie Apple 
HP Regen Drinks 
Selbina Milk	HP:1	2:00	40	-	         -        - 
Orange au Lait	HP:1	5:00	100	Cooking 51	Water	Saruta Orange x2, Honey, Selbina Milk 
Apple au Lait	HP:2	3:00	120	Cooking 63	Water	Faerie Apple x2, Honey, Selbina Milk 
Pear au Lait	HP:3	5:00	300	Cooking 72	Water	Derfland Pear x2, Honey, Selbina Milk 
Pamama au Lait	HP:2	10:00	400	Cooking 81	Water	Pamama x2, Honey, Selbina Milk 
Persikos au Lait	HP:4	10:00	800	Cooking 91	Water	Persikos x2, Honey, Selbina Milk 
 

...........................................................................................
For comparison:
Name	         Rate   Duration  Total	MP Cost 
Refresh	         MP:3	1:30	150	40 
Regen I	         HP:5	1:00	120	15 
Regen II	         HP:12	1:00	240	36 
Regen III	         HP:18	1:00	360	64 
...........................................................................................


Other than to say: Drinks do stack with food, I'll spare you the basics, since you all know it anyway, or can look it up easily.

However, there are some points I'd like to mention. No drink will ever be more effective than a spell (Regen/Refresh) per unit of time, though they can certainly have much longer durations. (Technically Amrita can, but it's the stuff of legends- so much so that I didn't even include it above. Research it yourself if you want to know about it.) Even the mighty Persikos Au Lait, which sells for 15K a pop on Fairy, will only give you 4HP per 3 seconds, as opposed to Regen I's 5. In the end, Drinks often give total MP or HP regen beyond that available from spells (Yagudo Drinks will even outclass a self-cast Refresh, since the net MP gain is only 110). Still, spells are preferred to Drinks in most conceivable cases.

All Juices except Vampire Juice and Yagudo Drinks are available from NPCs in some way (though not necessarily at any given time). (I guess you can't buy Slime Juice, but I wouldnÂ’t recommend drinking it anyway- that stuff's worse than sniffing Animal Glue. I suspect those things are really the Dynamis Overlord's discarded chamber pots).

Here is the point for which I started this whole thread: Why do we slavishly worship the Yagudo Drink? Sure, it is the most powerful juice, sure it is not at an NPC and is harder to makeÂ… but that doesn't make it all that much better usually. I am a Juice nut myself, but I use Melon Juice almost exclusively now. Melon Juice gives 2MP per 3 second "tick" just like a Yagudo Drink, but (on Fairy anyway) at a much lower price, whether crafted or bought. In fact, depending on your server, two Melon Juices give more MP for longer than a single Yagudo Drink, for much less cash! The only time I can see a Yagudo Drink being superior is if you A) just plain donÂ’t have any room, B) really think the miniscule time spent using more drinks will hurt you. The only common example I can think of would be the lvl. 20 Avatar fights. The three minute duration of the Yagudo Drink handily coincides with the three minute duration of Astral Flow, so you can pop one of them and not have to worry about drinking another one in the high stress environment of the avatar fight. But even then a cool head and a fraction more attention will mean you can save some cash on the Yagudo Drink! So there you have it, depending on your server prices, Yagudo Drinks are just another foolish cookie-cutter that players blindly follow, too uninformed or dogmatic to experiment and learn if there are any other effective options.

Edited, Sat May 14 17:16:11 2005 by Kiyokatsu
#2 May 11 2005 at 7:24 PM Rating: Decent
Very nice.. Too bad I stopped playing mage classes, but this deserves a bump at least for those who do.
#3 May 11 2005 at 7:30 PM Rating: Good
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1,173 posts
Maybe now someone'll actually buy these grape juices I'm skilling on.

That aside, good reference, even if it doesn show that the best drinks next to Yag drinks (because SE won't let the NA version call it "Yagudo Wine" or grape juice "Wine") are melon juice (level 40) and pineapple juice (level 30). It's something that I've wondered about while leveling cooking, the two earlier drinks are more potent than grape juice, which is a higher synth.

Well, now that the secrets out, let me give a word of advice to any job dependent on MP. My job as a PLD pre-Refresh was made much easier by leveling my cooking to the point where I can make my own juice in the field. And you'd be surprised how easily the materials can fall in your lap. Regional venders are a good place to start. If they're more convenient, the dock store in kazham sells pineapples, and theres an NPC in Rabao with the materials for melon juice.
#4 May 12 2005 at 12:19 AM Rating: Good
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1,368 posts
Erg, lost a post.... /fume

Yunchang wrote:
...good reference, even if it doesn show that the best drinks next to Yag drinks...are melon juice (level 40) and pineapple juice (level 30).


As far as I am concerned, melon juice is the queen of drinks, in fact, that was the thesis of my thread ^^. It is easily portable for a field kitchen (three stacks of materials for 24 total juices), cheap (water < dark, melons are easily NPCed), and quite potent, both in total MP return and MP per unit of time.

Pineapple juice is certainly a competitor. It is likewise portable (three stacks for 24, or even 2 stacks for 12) and cheap, and it is very easy to get to a level able to make it. Not to mention it is the king of longevity- four full minutes of effect! And at eariler levels the 2MP per 3 second drinks can be overkill, a single skillfully swilled pineapple juice will often last an entire experience chain.

Yunchang wrote:
It's something that I've wondered about while leveling cooking, the two earlier drinks are more potent than grape juice, which is a higher synth.


Hadn't noticed before- but you are quite right. Melon juice is statistically superior in every way to grape juice, despite being mastered 10 skill levels earlier. I suppose this is a nod to realism; it is harder to properly ferment than to simply squeeze the guts of melons into a bottle and slap a mini tiki umbrella in it. Grape juice is an intermediary synth, however. It is an ingredient for both of the 50's drinks- Mulsum and the ever lovin' Yagudo. So, grape juice probably serves more to segue into more advanced brewing techiques than it does as a tart and tangy finished product (I know it did for me!).
#5 May 12 2005 at 12:38 AM Rating: Good
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478 posts
Good job kiyo, hope to see you on tonight. I have some questions I need to ask you about gardening ^^.
#6 May 12 2005 at 5:53 AM Rating: Default
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242 posts
Nice post, only one thing: Yagudo Drink is 3mp/tick not 2^^
#7 May 12 2005 at 6:00 AM Rating: Good
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362 posts
No, it really is 2/tick, I should know, having used lots in my Avatar fights (last one finished Tuesday). Carbuncle costs 3/tick and with a yag drink he was 1/tick.
#8 May 12 2005 at 6:00 AM Rating: Default
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547 posts
Yagudo drink is 3mp/tick.
Vampire juice is 3mp/hp/tick
Regen I is 120HP total.

and selbina milk is not a aulait lol it milk :P
#9 May 12 2005 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
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1,622 posts
Lady Kiyokatsu wrote:

Pineapple juice is certainly a competitor. It is likewise portable (three stacks for 24, or even 2 stacks for 12) and cheap, and it is very easy to get to a level able to make it. Not to mention it is the king of longevity- four full minutes of effect! And at eariler levels the 2MP per 3 second drinks can be overkill, a single skillfully swilled pineapple juice will often last an entire experience chain.


One advantage Pineapple Juice has over Melon Juice in field synthesis is that you're only using one type of fruit. Thus, if you blow up two Thundermelons and I blow up two Pineapples, I can make one more juice than you (and have one more slot open, but I suppose fruit isn't too painful to toss if you run low on space).

Genova wrote:

and selbina milk is not a aulait lol it milk :P


"au lait" means "with milk". I think milk certainly qualifies as being "with milk".



Edited, Thu May 12 11:17:53 2005 by abracadada
#10 May 12 2005 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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5,587 posts
I thought Yagudo Drinks negated the avatar perpetuation cost at that level. Whenever I use Ramuh at level 20 and drink a Yag Drink, I actually gain MP instead of losing it. Does this work with other juices as well?
#11 May 12 2005 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
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694 posts
Nothing contributive at all to add to this.

Stopping by to say I liked your 666th post.

That is all.

-Aen
#12 May 12 2005 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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5,587 posts
Thanks for the great info BTW, I think it's very useful and enlightening. Rate ^

However, I'd like to play Devil's Advocate on this for a sec and debunk your melon juices are more cost effective than yag drink theory. You say:
Lady Kiyokatsu wrote:

Melon Juice gives 2MP per 3 second �tick� just like a Yagudo Drink, but at roughly 1/3 the price (whether crafted or bought). In fact- two Melon Juices give more MP for longer than a single Yagudo Drink, for much less cash!


First off, 1/3 is not entirely accurate if you are talking about crafting costs. It's more like 2/3 of the price as you will see below. That's comparing stacks of 12 to each other.

Melon Juices sell for 1k from vendor according to somepage, yag drinks sell for 2k on AH on my server, so they are half the cost if you aren't crafting. *Note: Melon may be cheaper on AH, but I can't say since I have no means of checking atm, but I know the cost of yag drinks because I make them myself to save money.

I did a little math because I was bored using the lowest vendor prices for materials based on cannotlinkto and the current crystal prices on my server (1k for water stack, 3.5k for dark stack).

Melon Juice x12 = Thundermelon x 12 + Watermelon x12 + Water Crystal x12

Watermelons (184 x 12) = 2,208
Thundermelons (299 x 12) = 3,588
Water Crystals x12 = 1,000
-------------------------------
Total cost: 6,796
Total duration: 2:15 x 12 = 27 min
Total cost per min: 252 gil




Yag Drink x12 = Yagudo Cherry x12 + Buburimu Grape x36 + Dark Crystal x12

Yagudo Cherries (40 x 12) = 480
Buburimu Grapes (184 x 36) = 6,624
Dark Crystals x12 = 3,500
-------------------------------
Total cost: 10,604
Total duration: 3:00 x 12 = 36 min
Total cost per min: 294 gil

From this, it shows Yag Drinks cost a hair more per min.



EDIT: Corrected math error for Melon Juice cost per min.

Edited, Mon May 23 10:37:08 2005 by jmakovec
#13 May 12 2005 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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5,587 posts
Lady Kiyokatsu wrote:
So there you have it, Yagudo Drinks are just another foolish cookie-cutter that players blindly follow, too uniformed or dogmatic to experiemnt and learn if there are any other effecitve options.


You might want to change this insulting statement. I guess some of us are "foolish", "uniformed" and "dogmatic" for using the most cost effective option, just because it isn't what you use.
#14 May 14 2005 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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1,368 posts
Jmakovec wrote:
Lady Kiyokatsu wrote:
So there you have it, Yagudo Drinks are just another foolish cookie-cutter that players blindly follow, too uniformed or dogmatic to experiemnt and learn if there are any other effecitve options.


You might want to change this insulting statement.


I do not, but I will add a condition to it. I assumed (wrongly of course) that I didn't have to mention the universal and obvious caveat: Prices per server vary. Of course, I thought I could get away with just putting Milk under the Au Lait category without anyone fussing didn't I? I have edited the OP to include the previously unstated assumption.

However, the statement is absolutely true on Fairy, as well as your server. 3.5K for a stack of Dark Crystals would make me very happy. On Fairy you will pay at least twice that... making the calculation:

480 + 6,624 + 7,000 = 14,104/36 = 391 gil per minute

It is also true on your server, since crafting Melon Juice is cheaper per minute than Yagudo Drinks by the prices you quoted:

Jmakovec wrote:
Watermelons (184 x 12) = 2,208
Thundermelons (299 x 12) = 3,588
Water Crystals x12 = 1,000
-------------------------------
Total cost: 6,796
Total duration: 2:15 x 12 = 27 min
Total cost per min: 566 gil


566 is completely off based on these numbers. 6796/27 = 251 gil per minute... Looks like you divded by 12 instead of 27, which more than doubles the actual price.

251 < 294. Therefore, Melon Juice < Yagudo Drink. Also, Melon Juice ingredients will always take up the same or less inventory space per minute of refresh. In almost all cases they will take up less space. I suggest you make the switch when you are field crafting juices.

I thank you for the constructive criticism, you made me think about things more deeply and reassess the situation. In this case I was correct, however that will not always be the case and I welcome further review. You made me realize that Melon Juice is not 1/3 the price when crafted (though it is still cheaper), and so you did point out at least one flaw. And thanks for doing some leg-work on juice pricing and such (which really helped me examine things more easily).

This has brought up some further topics for consideration, such as: at what ratio of price between dark/water crystals will making Melon Juice become more effective assuming the other ingredients are NPC purchased? When will Yagudo Drinks actually be the better choice overall? Does the same logic about price over time apply to Grape Juice as well? I will consider some of these questions and re-post after I get home.


Genova wrote:
Vampire juice is 3mp/hp/tick


I have no direct experience with it, however more than 10 sites (Japanese and English) I checked have it @ 2 per tick. However, it is so rare that I would not be surprised if this is completely wrong and no-one has ever bothered to find out.

Edited, Mon May 16 03:52:10 2005 by Kiyokatsu
#15 May 14 2005 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
32 posts
Yunchang wrote:
Maybe now someone'll actually buy these grape juices I'm skilling on.


Ooh! Keep them! You can use them to make

Mulsum (52-56) (ice crystal + Grape Juice, Honey, Distilled Water)

Sells quite well on my Server
#16 May 15 2005 at 1:10 AM Rating: Good
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1,368 posts
galapogo wrote:
Yunchang wrote:
Maybe now someone'll actually buy these grape juices I'm skilling on.


Ooh! Keep them! You can use them to make

Mulsum (52-56) (ice crystal + Grape Juice, Honey, Distilled Water)

Sells quite well on my Server


I did this as well. Grape Juice > Mulsum > Yagudo Drink from about 46-60 is actually a profit skill-up path last time I checked on Fairy.
#17 May 22 2005 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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1,745 posts
I still love pineapple juice the most. I use yagudos over melons still, i mainly only use juice in situations where i wouldn't have time to craft, like BCs.
#18 May 22 2005 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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1,612 posts
Of course, you can also carry along the fruit appropriate to the crystals the mobs drop in the area. For fighting crabs, pugs (etc) it's easy to throw in a stack of pineapples for field crafting.

Same works with dark crystals if you're going someplace like Attohwa Chasm and fighting Antlions, or if you're killing Anticans in QS caves.
#19 May 23 2005 at 9:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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5,587 posts
Lady Kiyokatsu wrote:

Jmakovec wrote:
Watermelons (184 x 12) = 2,208
Thundermelons (299 x 12) = 3,588
Water Crystals x12 = 1,000
-------------------------------
Total cost: 6,796
Total duration: 2:15 x 12 = 27 min
Total cost per min: 566 gil


566 is completely off based on these numbers. 6796/27 = 251 gil per minute... Looks like you divded by 12 instead of 27, which more than doubles the actual price.

251 < 294. Therefore, Melon Juice < Yagudo Drink. Also, Melon Juice ingredients will always take up the same or less inventory space per minute of refresh. In almost all cases they will take up less space. I suggest you make the switch when you are field crafting juices.

I thank you for the constructive criticism, you made me think about things more deeply and reassess the situation. In this case I was correct, however that will not always be the case and I welcome further review. You made me realize that Melon Juice is not 1/3 the price when crafted (though it is still cheaper), and so you did point out at least one flaw. And thanks for doing some leg-work on juice pricing and such (which really helped me examine things more easily).

This has brought up some further topics for consideration, such as: at what ratio of price between dark/water crystals will making Melon Juice become more effective assuming the other ingredients are NPC purchased? When will Yagudo Drinks actually be the better choice overall? Does the same logic about price over time apply to Grape Juice as well? I will consider some of these questions and re-post after I get home.


Thanks for catching my stupid math error. You sold me. I'm converting to Melon Juice, especially since Dark Crystals recently rose from 3.5k to 7k this past week on my server, although it should drop back down since it looks like the supply skyrocketed again. Water Crystals are much easier to farm if I'm too cheap to buy them.
#20 May 23 2005 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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141 posts
Should we be adding Chocomilk into this subject?

+3mp per tick for 1hr
#21 May 23 2005 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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1,368 posts
jmakovec wrote:
Thanks for catching my stupid math error. You sold me. I'm converting to Melon Juice, especially since Dark Crystals recently rose from 3.5k to 7k this past week on my server, although it should drop back down since it looks like the supply skyrocketed again. Water Crystals are much easier to farm if I'm too cheap to buy them.


No problem Jmakovec, it was a simple enough error and definitely understandable, it took me awhile cross-checking your numbers until I caught it myself (whenever a discussion becomes as specific and numbers oriented as this one did I find it's best to double check sources and math). /rate excellent for being the type of poster who can engage in dialog, contribute and not just degenerate into flaming. The leg work you did on ffxi.cannotlinkto really contributed and helped me look at the prices of things in a cross server way.

And sorry about that Dark Crystal price hike... I'm an old school conservative capitalist and don't really see inflation as a bad thing per se, but I understand the frustration of a sky rocketing price just the same. It makes you wonder what would happen to server economies if places like Allakhazam didn't quickly spread info about what prices are like across servers and help normalize them. For awhile on Fairy Dark and Light were actually cheaper than Fire...but once Fire hit 5K, I think people realized they could capitalize on most player's ingrained view that Dark and Light are more expensive than Fire.

Borderlineaddiction wrote:
Should we be adding Chocomilk into this subject?

+3mp per tick for 1hr


No, Chocomilk does something completely different than the "Refresh effect" Drinks listed above. Chocomilk is technically a "Food" and not a "Drink." What Chocomilk does is adds +3 mp per tick of "healing," which is like having an extra level of clear mind. In other words, it functions in the same way as the Seer's Tunic or Dark Staff- adding MP onto the amount you get back per 20 or 10 second "tick" while resting. I prefer to express this as +3 hMP (+3 healed MP)

I can't even guess what the price of Chocomilk would be if it really provided 3mp/tick refresh (equal to RDM Refresh) for a full hour.

Edited, Mon May 23 11:30:27 2005 by Kiyokatsu
#22 May 23 2005 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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1,332 posts
"Lady Kiyokatsu" wrote:
So there you have it, Yagudo Drinks are just another foolish cookie-cutter that players blindly follow, too uniformed or dogmatic to experiemnt and learn if there are any other effecitve options.


As far as cost vs. effectiveness, your aim is true. However, there are other reasons why Yagudo Drinks are more commonly used over the other juices, namely, due to the duration of the Drink.

2 MP per 3 seconds for 3 minutes is a hefty gain of MP considering the many things that mages can do with their MP. For such instances as CoP battles, Yagudo Drinks are most commonly used simply because of their longevity. The duration of the effect is very important in CoP battles, where you are often faced with fighting multiple mobs that resist or are immune to most crowd control options, such as Bind, Sleep and Gravity.

However, there are also instances where you can expect to lose your Juice effect almost readily. For instance, in the BC battle against Fenrir Prime, who's Lunar Roar will dispel all effects besides Food and Signet effects from your charater with a single casting. In this case, the shorter duration Melon Juices would be better. However, you'll find this instance is much rarer than the former.

Therefore, the use of juices is entirely situational, to a point. Yagudo are still always the "best" drink, if not entirely cost effective. In many cases, you'll find that cost effectiveness is not entirely the best thing to rely on. Especially when you have Ultima breathing down your neck with Equalizers. =)
#23 May 23 2005 at 8:55 PM Rating: Good
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272 posts
Very interesting. Thanks for this. I'm a big fan of trying to get people to realize how many good foods there are out there.

Even as veteran cook I'll confess to over-relying on yagudo drinks.

Scenario: Boyahda Tree. Food of choice: Marron Glace (yum yum). Marron Glace expands on cooking (9 slots->12 slots) so I carry raw ingredients in the field. I can cook as needed, sell/give to party members etc.

Relevance? Tough fighting, couple unexpected links, blow through the three emergency yagudos I brought into the field. Announce to the party I've used up all my MP drinks. Sitting in my inventory? Four stacks of sandorian grapes and two of dark crystals. Grape Juice gives just as much MP/sec as yagudos, so why not cook some up and drink if needed, make into marron glace if not...

Why not? Because yagudo yagudo.

As others have said Yagudos are certainly very effective and give the most MP/effort. But as a mage cook in the field, grape juice never occurred to me until your post. Thanks and rate up.
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