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Laziness Vs. Optimism Vs. ElitismFollow

#1 Oct 27 2004 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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WARNING - this is a long post, and a rant.

  • "I don't need to raise my NIN sub past 12, I get nothing out of it"
  • "I don't need armor, I'm a Black Mage"
  • "Food is too expensive"
  • "I like being a WAR with a WHM to be able to heal"
  • "I'm a Damage Dealer Red Mage"
  • "Don't tell me how to do my job"
  • "Who says a Black Mage can't pull?"
  • "LMAO Where's your Hawker's knife, Noob"
  • "I don't need the newest scythe, I'm broke"
  • "I do more damage than you, Noob"
  • "Wouldn't it be cool to be a SAM/SMN and have my own Carby?"
  • And in summary:
  • "Don't tell me how to play"

  • Hello everyone!

    My name is Jord and I've been around this forum for a long time. Back in the good old days, people would come with a question, get a few different perspectives, and that would be that.

    The good old days are gone. Now it seems that every question elicits an arguement. Rather than two disputing camps, there seems to be a continuum of beliefs that vary along the axis of "effort," which looks something like this:

    Lazy Folks ------ Optimum Players ------ Elitists
    Low Effort -------------------------------------------- High Effort

    The Lazy Folks are the ones who put out minimal effort and scorn anyone who tries to tell them that they are not good enough. They will say that they are "good enough" and belittle anyone who takes the game seriously enough to tell them that they should optimize themselves.

    The Optimists (not in reference to optimisim as seeing the glass half full, but rather folks who aim to optimize their play to the best reasonable extent) are the somber folks who sit in the middle, are always up to date on their gear, but don't have a peacock charm and dual Hawker's Knife's +1.

    The Elitists are the ones who sit on their high horse and put down anyone who DOESN'T have the proverbial Peacock Charm. They tell people that anything less than +1 makes you somehow inferior and they try to use the "you're not the best" to put everyone else in their place. NOTE (edit) - not every high-end player falls under this negative category. It is the attitude that defines this category, not the playstyle.

    Let me explain something - you DO NOT come to a party equipped to be a Hero. I have partied w/ RNGs (just as an example) who DO have Elite gear (peacock charm, Hawker's +1's, etc.) and all they do is point out their damage. I hate to even tell them that everyone except the damage dealers have their damage filtered because we simply don't care. We appreciate that they are doing their job, but we are busy doing ours. On the flipside, those who choose to come to parties with underleveled sub-jobs and food do so thinking that they are only affecting their own performance so it doesn't matter.

    One of the reasons that JPs are so good at this game is because their motivation is different. Japan is the home of a very interdependent culture (as opposed to the west, which is generally an independent culture). They show up with leveled subjobs and food NOT to be UB3R, but to be a good contributor to a group.

    You know what? I'm sick of it.

    Dear Lazy Folks:

    You are wrong. FFXI is a social game, where grouping is required to progress. When you group with five other people, those five people are partially depending on you to do your job optimally so that they are making the most out of their time.

    If you decide that your 10-level-old gear is "alright," you are wasting their time. If you decide that food is "too expensive" you are wasting their time. If you think that SMN would be fun to sub for your WAR, you are wasting their time. If you don't know your role in a party, or thing that you being a unique spirit can do something that your job doesn't do you are wasting their time. If you are doing your job 70% as well as you could, you are wasting their time.

    Want to flame me and say you are "good enough" ?? Go ahead. I don't care. I'm sick of it. If you want to play a game halfassed, play a solo game so you won't be wasting other people's time.

    You say it's not that bad? Well, imagine this party:

  • RDM/DRK "damage dealer"
  • WAR/WHM "tank"
  • BLM/NIN
  • SAM/DRG
  • THF/RDM
  • WHM/THF

  • Let's say that none of them have food, and they are all a few levels behind on their equipment. This party take everything they have to kill a VT-IT, have to rest to full every fight, and would do TERRIBLY.

    Now, if you are a player of this caliber, and you join a reasonably good party, you are not contributing 1/6th of that party. You are contributing far less, and you are pulling the party's overall effectiveness down. You are a LEECH, causing the party difficulty (whether they realize it or not) and costing everyone experience points over time.

    These lazy people tend to be the most prevailant karma campers. Why? Because they take personal offense to people putting down their lazy playstyle. I'm sure I'm going to get Karma-bombed for saying this, but I don't care. I'm tired of lazy, half-assed players trying to tell everyone that we try too hard.

    Dear Elitists:

    Half of you are liars. I have only caught one person on Garuda who preeched "having x +1, y +1 and z uber rare item are essential to do ___ job effectively" and didn't have ANY of the items.

    Liars aside, telling people that they need 500k +1 items and multi-million gil HNM drops is stupid. There are many players of this game who are VERY GOOD AT THEIR JOBS without the aforementioned Elite items. Those items are as expensive as they are because they are in very short supply. SE designed it this way knowing that there are 12-hour-a-day players who will be after these items, but the average well-equipped player can do without them.

    If you want to go after these items, go for it! But don't think that gives you some sort of authority to sit up on your throne and tell everyone else that you are better because you have that extra 2-3 AGI / DEX / Accuracy / Rng. Acc. / Etc.

    PS. If you have taken the time to get the absolute best gear, but you don't flaunt it or try to imply that those without the gear are inferior/useless, you don't fall in this category. It is not the top-notch players who this post is aimed at - it is the ones with the egotistic attitudes.

    Dear Everyone Else:

    Ignore the rants and useless comments from the lazy folks and the elitists.

    If you meet the following general criteria:

  • Gear is up-to-date, and you have all the items you need
  • You bring food to parties ALWAYS
  • Your subjob improves your main job and is leveled
  • You take the time to read up on how to do your job

  • You are doing great! Just ignore the other two camps...

    Thank you for reading.

    Sincerely,

    Jord.



    Edited, Wed Oct 27 20:17:06 2004 by kingjord
    #2 Oct 27 2004 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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    788 posts
    /bow
    /cheer
    /bow
    /hurray
    /rate-up
    #3 Oct 27 2004 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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    2,511 posts
    Yep, while it certainly isn't necessary to have that Scorpian Harness to be able to function effectively, that still doesn't mean that it's OK to party in a Yukata.

    We hear too many claims of "elitism", mainly from people justifying grossly underlevelled subs, or grossly inadequate equipment.
    #4 Oct 27 2004 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
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    514 posts
    Amen, brother. I don't have Ochiudo's Kote, Fuma Kyahan, or a stinkin' Brown Belt, but darn it all, I -did- spent all of my money on a Jujitsu Gi. I play my job to my fullest and eat food. That makes me "good enough" in my book.
    ^^
    #5 Oct 27 2004 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
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    554 posts
    Excelent post indeed, specially about the comments how japanese people play.
    I could not agree more, i may be a bit of an elitist at times (or is it telling a WHM to use benediction when everyone is in red and then party dying being an elitist?) but i usually always try to have as good gear as possible, not to do damage/impress, but to make the party go better.
    If i do more damage, we kill faster and get experience faster, if i have more mp to heal, i don't have to rest as much, and we get experience faster!

    Either way, rate up for the good post, and sigh, there sure are too many of those 2 camp people (altough i'd say way more Lazy people)
    #6 Oct 27 2004 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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    3,139 posts
    RATE UP!!!

    Id like to think im in the optimist category. Dont have any 2mil gil items, but i have the best armor and items for my lvl within reason, and always use food.


    If only i could get an alliance to camp stroper for 72 hours and get everyone who needed an archers ring one (including myself) id be ever so happy.

    /em wakes up from his dream


    #7 Oct 27 2004 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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    879 posts
    cheers mate
    #8 Oct 27 2004 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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    1,332 posts
    Excellent post. Rated up.
    #9 Oct 27 2004 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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    240 posts
    I have

    Kraken Club
    Scorpion Harness
    Mermaid Rings
    Emp Hairpin
    Ochido's Kote

    ..and some other very nice stuff for my Ninja that most people don't have. Big deal. I wanted it because I wanted to play my job at the highest elvel possible. I don't "tell" people how to play thier jobs or what to buy. You can get by on average gear and be very effecitve and without a very close look, are *** productive as somebody who does ahve it.

    My point. There are some people who jsut want the best gear and are proud of the woirk it took to get it. And some of those same peope could care less what you are using. So don't lump people with "leet" gear into greedy elitists.

    The dangers of stereotyping.

    My personal saying is:

    You can be hardcore, without being a hardass.

    Wish more people where like that. I do see your points and they are good. Just be careful that you don't "pre-judge" people cause they took months out of thier gaming adventures to make money.
    #10 Oct 27 2004 at 5:17 PM Rating: Good
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    I responded to a post like this earlier today in the War forum and said pretty much the same thing. Jord, you kick so much *** that it's insane. You said everything that I do and then some.

    Rate up
    ____________________________
    FFXI (Retired)
    Naiya | Mithra | Windurst | Rank 10 | 1st Lieutenant | Ragnarok
    WAR: 75 MNK: 75 SAM: 66
    RotZ: O | CoP: O | ToAU: O | Apoch Nigh: O

    WoW
    Naiyah | B.Elf | 85 Rogue | Stormscale
    Doubleday | B.Elf | 85 Paladin | Stormscale


    [ffxivsig]367614[/ffxivsig]
    #11 Oct 27 2004 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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    11,852 posts
    Quote:
    Wish more people where like that. I do see your points and they are good. Just be careful that you don't "pre-judge" people cause they took months out of thier gaming adventures to make money.


    Don't get me wrong. I didn't mean to stereotype anyone, I was just talking about attitudes.

    If you have all of the very best gear, and you never snub anyone with an I'm-better-than-you attitude, you are not annoying or offending anyone - you are a great player, and all the power to you.
    #12 Oct 27 2004 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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    344 posts
    If I encounter another Ranger, sometimes I will examine them and check out their eqiupment.

    If they're only using Archer's Knives, or don't have an Emperor Hairpin, I will secretly say "Ha HA!!"

    Why? Cause I want to be the best possible Ranger I can be, and I like to think I'm in the top percentile in my level range.

    Am I going to throw this in someone's FACE? Hell no. Am I going to admonish them for not having uber equipment? Absolutetly not! As long as you're not a THF/WHM (*shudder* partied with one last night) You're good in my book.
    #13 Oct 27 2004 at 5:28 PM Rating: Excellent
    Awesome Kingjord...The same system could be applied to the posters on this board. Yes, the good old days are gone, but in the process of adding a new element to the boards, we have lost a lot of very valuable posters.

    I like to view the boards as...

    The asses......the followers.......players
    (or the asees...the masses...and the rest of us!)


    The asses are the new onslaught of posters that use the boards and the karma system to harass and ridicule the regular posters on the boards. They post meaningless threads, and fill the boards with crap.


    The massses are people that rate this **** up. Math is not your strong suit. IF an admin nukes a post -10, and then you all rate at awful...karma goes up!

    The players are the people that continue to struggle against the tide, and post informative and thoughtful questions. You are a dying breed! PLease hang in there you are an endangered species, and it is Pandy's goal to keep you alive!
    #14 Oct 27 2004 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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    Incredable Post I myself am an optimist taking most of my armor from quests af or af-2 but i have been lucky enough with my jobs that AF is the best sets. Other then elemental staff's and accesories the rest of my money goes to food and keeping my other jobs up to date. Rate-up for you.
    #15 Oct 27 2004 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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    Every once in a while, whilst wading through the unending dung heap that is internet forums, a gem is found that makes it all worth while.

    I've shared these exact sentiments for a long time now, but you've expressed them far better than I ever have. This really is a must-read for all players -- new, continuing, and expert alike.

    My only suggestion -- lose the "optimists" label. Perhaps "optimizers" or "enthusiasts" or something. Less confusing at first-glance.

    Great job!

    ____________________________
    33 rdm
    15 blm
    15 war
    7 bst
    2 whm (lol)
    {Rank 5} {Can I have it?} /cry
    #16 Oct 27 2004 at 6:00 PM Rating: Decent
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    424 posts
    I have 2 things I want to comment on:

    1) The people with "1337" equips are not all elitists or snobs as you said in your speech. I am saving up to 1 million right now to be the best SAM I can be at that level, I believe it will benefit me in the end but I will not tell any other SAM's or any other job to that matter that they NEED X item to be good. However, if they dont bring food / are equipped badly / have gimped sub, chances are I will comment on it.

    2) RDM/DRK is a viable job combination, though not a very popular one.

    Other than that, excellent post!
    #17 Oct 27 2004 at 6:44 PM Rating: Good
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    181 posts
    RDM/DRK is only viable for fighting suzaku, otherwise BLM is much better for a sub.

    Great post Jord rate up!
    #18 Oct 27 2004 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
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    135 posts
    Rate up Jord, excellent post ^_^.

    On a side note, did you ever get that ring you were after?
    #19 Oct 27 2004 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
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    144 posts
    Very well put Jord... said everything I've been trying to say for a long time without coming across as arrogant. The world needs more people like you.

    Thorondor
    Elvaan Rank 5
    Old - 52 Dragoon/ 26 Warrior
    New - 37 Paladin/ 18 Warrior
    Caitsith
    #20 Oct 27 2004 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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    460 posts
    This is an very very good post. I had a whole post written explaining where I fall but I figure no one realy cares and it doesn't matter. I'm and optimist and thats that.
    Much easier to just say thank you for this great post. It was well thought out and put together. Rate up and thats that.
    #21 Oct 27 2004 at 7:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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    496 posts
    I agree with you. Thanks for putting your thoughts "to paper" on this one.

    One point I'd like to add is that if you like the game but don't have the time to play to afford good gear and food for XP please consider slowing your XP game down. There's a lot more the game has to offer than leveling up. I for one don't think people should quit playing just because they don't have the time others have to put into the game, just maybe let yourself fall back behind the pack a bit in terms of XP parties and play some other aspects of the game until you are optimally equipped.
    #22 Oct 27 2004 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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    9,209 posts
    good post rate up for you (^.^)b


    now I wonder which category I fall into?
    I like to preech myself to be an elitist but never did that to everyone else, except something very unacceptable (ranger post 28 don't have archer's knife, but has a 10-lvl-below club to be equiped in main weapon slot instead)

    #23 Oct 27 2004 at 9:58 PM Rating: Good
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    Jord, I dislike your natural ability to look at everything with a neutral eye and make excellent posts like this. So just to make you more credible as if it were a negative trait, I am going to rate you up.

    Just to share my opinion, I would like to think I do my best to ignore people with underlevelled stats (not ignore as in "not invite", I mean ignore as in "not badger about"), but I will admit I form my own opinions about these people as I'm sure other people in the party may.

    To people with underlevelled subs, people may not say it to you, but a majority of them probably think you're lazy.

    AND, to be fair, a person with uber gear who likes to flaunt it like a yellow diamand ring can actually drag a party down as well.

    A RDM I partied with had great gear. He stopped the party for 10 minutes at a time so people would look at it and praise him about it...and the most disappointing thing was that people really did praise him about it, obviously costing us downtime.

    To people with uber gear, just be satisfied that you get invites over and over, you don't have to share why you think you should be invited over and over.
    #24 Oct 27 2004 at 10:02 PM Rating: Default
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    193 posts
    Before I say anything, I will admit that my underlevelled sub does indeed hurt the progress of a party I join by around 00.001% and I feel terrible for it. Perhaps I will fix that before I level my main anymore.

    Putting that aside, I love what you have said here.. up to a point. I do not like the way you classify aspiring SAM/SMNs as "lazy" people. There is nothing lazy about doing something that seems completely random and useless. There is also nothing wrong with it, granted that any party they join knows full well that they will be coming as a sam/smn. If they join as a sam/war, go /anon, and then change sub smn, that is just terrible (although still not lazy, just stupid and annoying).

    I think I am going to be rated down. Please just think about what I said and how I said it. I am not saying everyone should go out and use odd job combos. I am just trying to make us that much less ****-like. Those who play for fun and accept odd combos can be allowed to do so. Would you get pissed off if you saw a party with that deup you mentioned, or would you simply be curious?
    #25 Oct 28 2004 at 12:14 AM Rating: Default
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    802 posts
    -----

    Sorry forgot to quote

    Edited, Thu Oct 28 01:15:45 2004 by Humster
    #26 Oct 28 2004 at 12:15 AM Rating: Good
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    802 posts
    I'm a Mnk, and I did the same thing too.

    But after my PT with a JP mithra Mnk with 0 Acc gear, whom owned me in DOT and ACC, I changed.

    Now I go around helping other Mnks balance their equipment and gil.

    You should do it too, to other Rngs (^^
    Murrdox wrote:
    If I encounter another Ranger, sometimes I will examine them and check out their eqiupment.

    If they're only using Archer's Knives, or don't have an Emperor Hairpin, I will secretly say "Ha HA!!"

    Why? Cause I want to be the best possible Ranger I can be, and I like to think I'm in the top percentile in my level range.

    Am I going to throw this in someone's FACE? Hell no. Am I going to admonish them for not having uber equipment? Absolutetly not! As long as you're not a THF/WHM (*shudder* partied with one last night) You're good in my book.
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