hey nice post! I have been working on these strategies myself and I would like to add a few of my own.
Usually i stand out front of the party waiting for the puller to come back. I have him run past me as I voke the mob. Then I position mysylf square from the mages. works really well. try it.
I also have a basic format for keeping hate. This can change from mob to mob
voke
take a few hits
cure2
voke
shiled bash or cure
take alot more hits
cure2
voke
use ws skill
Now this may change as u go up in levels, but it is just fine for the mid levels.
Good post and imput guys!
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How to make a Paladin happyFollow
6 posts
Actually from a white mage stand point. I disagree with #3...depending on the mob anyway.
Standing behind a paladin is only going to get you hit with nasty AOE attacks. If you're fighting Exo's, crawlers or any mob that does the kinda Cone type AOE attack (not to mention often) the last place you want to be is behind the paladin. You're white mages will hate you. :P
Standing behind a paladin is only going to get you hit with nasty AOE attacks. If you're fighting Exo's, crawlers or any mob that does the kinda Cone type AOE attack (not to mention often) the last place you want to be is behind the paladin. You're white mages will hate you. :P
1. Do not go all out damage, before 2nd voke (that is providing your paladin knows to voke every 30 secs).
Im confused Ive mainly done blm drg and mnk so as i feel.
Do not go all out damage + mnk/drg/drk/blm = error o.O hehe actually its good info for those who wouldn't of thought of this its nice to see people state some of these things for others to learn off of instead of learning the hard way ( which might I add sux =P)
Im confused Ive mainly done blm drg and mnk so as i feel.
Do not go all out damage + mnk/drg/drk/blm = error o.O hehe actually its good info for those who wouldn't of thought of this its nice to see people state some of these things for others to learn off of instead of learning the hard way ( which might I add sux =P)
I just want to start off by saying I am a Taru Blm and I LOVE A GOOD PLD TANK! I appriciate what you do! I try to do the things that you suggest in general to help all of my tanks. You are my lifeline. I can not believe that some blm's nuke before the first voke, or that they nuke before the mob is at least 1/4 dead! I do not even cast bio before the tank has voked. I do not nuke until all my debuffs are up, and the mele have built up some good hate. I do not chain cast. I understand that the pld can cure himself, even if the whm doesn't believe him. I will help cure him if he is in the red, or out of mp (blm/whm). In short I do what I have to to keep you alive (strange turn around I know) because you keep me alive. It's a nice balance in parties.
I have to add 1 more thing, however. The greatest pld I ever partied with could hold hate so well, that I could nuke for all my little Taru was worth, and the mob didn't even look at me. Now that's a true tank! Thanks to all you pld. You keep me alive, and I won't anoy you. Then we'll all be happy.
By the way, blm's should not chain cast, or be stupid like that. If you check out the blm forums, you'll see what a good blm should be like in your pt.
---------
Birgette-Tarutaru-sylph
30blm/17/whm/9rdm/7thf
pld next?? I'm thinking about it :)
I have to add 1 more thing, however. The greatest pld I ever partied with could hold hate so well, that I could nuke for all my little Taru was worth, and the mob didn't even look at me. Now that's a true tank! Thanks to all you pld. You keep me alive, and I won't anoy you. Then we'll all be happy.
By the way, blm's should not chain cast, or be stupid like that. If you check out the blm forums, you'll see what a good blm should be like in your pt.
---------
Birgette-Tarutaru-sylph
30blm/17/whm/9rdm/7thf
pld next?? I'm thinking about it :)
yes, deffently a must read for everyone!
But i would like to rant about thf's though ;)
I'm a level 37 pld and have yet to be in one PT with a GOOD thf. i mean they may be good with a PT where there isnt a pld but since im a pld i have no idea what a thf is like without a pld ^^;;. but anyways, THF's need to be quick with TA/SA. Everyone knows the basic operation with a thf and a pld in the same PT is anyone with provoke(other than the pld) vokes first, thf SA/TA's on the pld's side and pld enjoys massive age. in theory this makes life much easier for plds...yeah it would if a thf was quick at it. All the PT's i've been in went like this...
???/war vokes first, mob attacks him, i get behind the mob and the thf runs around doing god knows what while i wait patiently for the thf to finally get into position and sa/ta while i watch in agony the vokers HP drop to red(in agony b/c i know im going to get blamed if he dies). So i say ***** it and voke onto me and do my building hate thing(and by this time its hard to build efficient hate since the dmg dealers have already built hate on theirselves) So when i voke the thf finally runs to the other side and sa/ta's(on the opposite side of me) so that really pisses me off b/c i've lost the time to build hate to prepare for that so the mob goes crazy after that.
so after about two or three mobs i usually tell the PT i'll voke first. And like this, i can keep hate after SA/TA 95% of the time, so imo, i prefer to PT without thf's.
But my point, thf's need to know how to SA/TA quick enough, or it really really makes things hard for the tank.
But i would like to rant about thf's though ;)
I'm a level 37 pld and have yet to be in one PT with a GOOD thf. i mean they may be good with a PT where there isnt a pld but since im a pld i have no idea what a thf is like without a pld ^^;;. but anyways, THF's need to be quick with TA/SA. Everyone knows the basic operation with a thf and a pld in the same PT is anyone with provoke(other than the pld) vokes first, thf SA/TA's on the pld's side and pld enjoys massive age. in theory this makes life much easier for plds...yeah it would if a thf was quick at it. All the PT's i've been in went like this...
???/war vokes first, mob attacks him, i get behind the mob and the thf runs around doing god knows what while i wait patiently for the thf to finally get into position and sa/ta while i watch in agony the vokers HP drop to red(in agony b/c i know im going to get blamed if he dies). So i say ***** it and voke onto me and do my building hate thing(and by this time its hard to build efficient hate since the dmg dealers have already built hate on theirselves) So when i voke the thf finally runs to the other side and sa/ta's(on the opposite side of me) so that really pisses me off b/c i've lost the time to build hate to prepare for that so the mob goes crazy after that.
so after about two or three mobs i usually tell the PT i'll voke first. And like this, i can keep hate after SA/TA 95% of the time, so imo, i prefer to PT without thf's.
But my point, thf's need to know how to SA/TA quick enough, or it really really makes things hard for the tank.
Raionn wrote:
yes, deffently a must read for everyone!
But i would like to rant about thf's though ;)
I'm a level 37 pld and have yet to be in one PT with a GOOD thf. i mean they may be good with a PT where there isnt a pld but since im a pld i have no idea what a thf is like without a pld ^^;;. but anyways, THF's need to be quick with TA/SA. Everyone knows the basic operation with a thf and a pld in the same PT is anyone with provoke(other than the pld) vokes first, thf SA/TA's on the pld's side and pld enjoys massive age. in theory this makes life much easier for plds...yeah it would if a thf was quick at it. All the PT's i've been in went like this...
???/war vokes first, mob attacks him, i get behind the mob and the thf runs around doing god knows what while i wait patiently for the thf to finally get into position and sa/ta while i watch in agony the vokers HP drop to red(in agony b/c i know im going to get blamed if he dies). So i say ***** it and voke onto me and do my building hate thing(and by this time its hard to build efficient hate since the dmg dealers have already built hate on theirselves) So when i voke the thf finally runs to the other side and sa/ta's(on the opposite side of me) so that really pisses me off b/c i've lost the time to build hate to prepare for that so the mob goes crazy after that.
so after about two or three mobs i usually tell the PT i'll voke first. And like this, i can keep hate after SA/TA 95% of the time, so imo, i prefer to PT without thf's.
But my point, thf's need to know how to SA/TA quick enough, or it really really makes things hard for the tank.
But i would like to rant about thf's though ;)
I'm a level 37 pld and have yet to be in one PT with a GOOD thf. i mean they may be good with a PT where there isnt a pld but since im a pld i have no idea what a thf is like without a pld ^^;;. but anyways, THF's need to be quick with TA/SA. Everyone knows the basic operation with a thf and a pld in the same PT is anyone with provoke(other than the pld) vokes first, thf SA/TA's on the pld's side and pld enjoys massive age. in theory this makes life much easier for plds...yeah it would if a thf was quick at it. All the PT's i've been in went like this...
???/war vokes first, mob attacks him, i get behind the mob and the thf runs around doing god knows what while i wait patiently for the thf to finally get into position and sa/ta while i watch in agony the vokers HP drop to red(in agony b/c i know im going to get blamed if he dies). So i say ***** it and voke onto me and do my building hate thing(and by this time its hard to build efficient hate since the dmg dealers have already built hate on theirselves) So when i voke the thf finally runs to the other side and sa/ta's(on the opposite side of me) so that really pisses me off b/c i've lost the time to build hate to prepare for that so the mob goes crazy after that.
so after about two or three mobs i usually tell the PT i'll voke first. And like this, i can keep hate after SA/TA 95% of the time, so imo, i prefer to PT without thf's.
But my point, thf's need to know how to SA/TA quick enough, or it really really makes things hard for the tank.
Sorry to continue the derailing, but this annoyed me...
Yeah, the THFs you mentioned there are inept, and they are in fact wasting the group's MP/efficiency by taking so long to position. I'm sorry they're giving the rest of us a bad name. But guess what? Some of us are not inept, and in fact have to wait for our SATA partners to position. In most of my pickup parties, it's my SATA partners who cause the delays...either the voker isn't quick enough on the draw, or the PLD dances around in back of the monster trying to find perfect center, or whatnot. Come on...I've been pulling then immediately sliding into position in back of the mob for 28 levels straight now. I've got it down, thanks, and any THF who doesn't by, say, level 35, should switch jobs. ^^ Pickup parties were quite a reality check after having partied with my static, where our PLD/WAR and MNK/WAR simply stood in a straight line with each other, and our MNK got his voking down to a science...I'd pull, run past both of them, and the MNK would wait till the mob was between him and the PLD before voking. At most they only had to edge to the left or right and they were lined up, so all I had to do was turn around, slide up and engage, bam, SATA's on the PLD. When we got into the groove after fighting for a bit, our MNK only took a hit or at most two before hate was slammed in place.
There are bad players in every class. I've partied with some bad PLDs who couldn't hold hate even with my SATA help, when I could land it on them at all, but it doesn't mean the class is useless in the same party as me, nor that all PLDs are inept or anything. :P The purpose of having both PLD and THF in the same party is not because the PLD can't hold hate on his own, but because with both of us working together, the rest of the party is much freer to use their full abilities without having hate slip focus (plus THF is a great damage dealer and SC closer from 30-60, and still decent after that). When PLDs and THFs get along, the RNGs, DRKs, MNKs, DRGs, BLMs, etc. don't need to hold back as much. Like BRDs, we're not absolutely necessary in every party (well, except NIN tank parties ^^), but we can greatly increase efficiency. My point: don't say the class is useless in your party just because you've had bad THFs before. When you get a good one, you'll appreciate the increased efficiency, honestly. ^^
dont want to turn this into a ranting post so im just going to say this...
didnt mean to sound like i ment all thf's are bad, im just saying from my experience, if your a thf you need to read up on how to PT with a pld b/c from what i've seen it seems like most do not. But you were right bout the voker too. some times its not the thf's fault but the 1st voker dosent voke quick enough. So if your a thf PT'ed with a pld just try to be as quick as you can with sa/ta and dont be afraid of telling the pld to get into position quicker ;) The first few seconds of a battle are critical to a pld when building hate, so if they are lost it could be death for the PT.
didnt mean to sound like i ment all thf's are bad, im just saying from my experience, if your a thf you need to read up on how to PT with a pld b/c from what i've seen it seems like most do not. But you were right bout the voker too. some times its not the thf's fault but the 1st voker dosent voke quick enough. So if your a thf PT'ed with a pld just try to be as quick as you can with sa/ta and dont be afraid of telling the pld to get into position quicker ;) The first few seconds of a battle are critical to a pld when building hate, so if they are lost it could be death for the PT.
Scholar
25 posts
Bump!
Bump!
Bump!
Great guide for all players.
Bump!
Bump!
Great guide for all players.
/bump
Mostly correct, but I take issue with a few things...
(redmage speaking)
1&12) Theres this thing called a warrior who does several times your damage and dosnt have a "refresh me now!"<call1> macro.
He says the same things (-_-)?
Work harder ya lazy bums! /em cracks whip.
7) keep the drk and other meeles off the rdms back.
You not only want refresh, but also regen and paralyze on any weak mobs (not to mention a reserve for sleeping adds and emergency healing)
His workload affects you, dont let the party sink him in demands.
9&11) there is no such thing as tp, my mp powerd friend.
TP is a lie, do not speak of it again (=_=*)
(redmage speaking)
1&12) Theres this thing called a warrior who does several times your damage and dosnt have a "refresh me now!"<call1> macro.
He says the same things (-_-)?
Work harder ya lazy bums! /em cracks whip.
7) keep the drk and other meeles off the rdms back.
You not only want refresh, but also regen and paralyze on any weak mobs (not to mention a reserve for sleeping adds and emergency healing)
His workload affects you, dont let the party sink him in demands.
9&11) there is no such thing as tp, my mp powerd friend.
TP is a lie, do not speak of it again (=_=*)
6 posts
you should put this in main forum mostly paladins look here
nice post thou i can relate
nice post thou i can relate
Bump! I am a fairly new PLD (Lvl17), and I am loving it! I am getting great tips from this theard! Thank you all!
Wow I thought this was going to be sarcastic and you actually started one of if not THE most informative thread I've ever read.
Rate up....even though you're already at 5.00
Rate up....even though you're already at 5.00
Great post as a warrior tanking was my job and now I'm a PLD keeping hate is not a problem and reading this thread will definetly improve my tanking skills. So far ppl I pt with never came close to red. But I did run into this small issue even as a warrior. I always wondered why the mages would heal the puller when returning to camp. Even though the mage took a hit I was able to retain the hate(war/mnk at the time). Now I know what to say to a mage when healing the puller in a very nice way STOP HEALING THE PULLER. Just kinding really just kidding, please don't blast me for the little joke....(GREAT THREAD) TY I needed the laughter for that. lol
Will use these tips to the fullest.
Will use these tips to the fullest.
Ahhh, I miss ol Russian's posts. But his guild moved on to another game so no more FFXI for Russian. But his guide will live on and help parties understand the mechanics of hate control.
Bump for the Pally in my LS who was complaining about his PT 2 nights ago, no refresh, thf tricking on a war.
People can't read this if it's on page 8...
People can't read this if it's on page 8...
Quote:
5. If your Paladin paralyzed, please, please, give him paralyna. Nothing is worse than missing a provoke or sentinel because of this. I heard ppl say "but you don't do damage, paralyze is no biggie to you." Well... it is a biggie, when paladin looses aggro due to it.
6. If Paladin is silenced = he's worthless. See #5.
7. Redmages, please understand that chain 4 and 5s are very dependedent on Paladin's MP. He doesn't need MP for nukes, he needs it for cures and aggro. Refresh your tank, it is important.
8. If you see a Paladin in red and he's gonna die, provoking will be worthless most of the time (a good paladin will have close to 0 MP by the time he's close to being dead, which means he generated a lot of aggro). Best thing you can do is to increase your damage as much as you can to kill the mob before it wastes your tank. Remember, you will be next on the mob's breakfast menu.
9. Do not pull when paladin is out of MP. Even if whm is ready for pull (if whm is ready before paladin, there is something wrong usually - ask your paladin to be more conservative on MP).
10. Do not scream for cover and expect your paladin to try to squezee in between you and the mob. Move yourself behind the paladin and move away once cover is over and/or he got the hate back.
11. If you renkei with paladin, put him last in the chain, chances are his TP will be the lowest (meaning sometimes he will have to skip the chain).
12. Remember aggro management is a group effort.
6. If Paladin is silenced = he's worthless. See #5.
7. Redmages, please understand that chain 4 and 5s are very dependedent on Paladin's MP. He doesn't need MP for nukes, he needs it for cures and aggro. Refresh your tank, it is important.
8. If you see a Paladin in red and he's gonna die, provoking will be worthless most of the time (a good paladin will have close to 0 MP by the time he's close to being dead, which means he generated a lot of aggro). Best thing you can do is to increase your damage as much as you can to kill the mob before it wastes your tank. Remember, you will be next on the mob's breakfast menu.
9. Do not pull when paladin is out of MP. Even if whm is ready for pull (if whm is ready before paladin, there is something wrong usually - ask your paladin to be more conservative on MP).
10. Do not scream for cover and expect your paladin to try to squezee in between you and the mob. Move yourself behind the paladin and move away once cover is over and/or he got the hate back.
11. If you renkei with paladin, put him last in the chain, chances are his TP will be the lowest (meaning sometimes he will have to skip the chain).
12. Remember aggro management is a group effort.
13. Don't invite a THF, a PLD already has all the tools he needs to keep hate, THFs more often then not only lead to trouble.
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
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I thought of it first:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
9 posts
Atm, I've been levelling WAR, because I've decided I like that rather than PLD. I can cause some mediocre damage, and still do the job of tanking. With PLD's around, it would seem getting an invite as a tank would be hard. Well then I could just as easily be a melee fighter, right? Again, the problem arises when there are DRK's and RNG's abound. That's how the situation is in Crawler's Nest on Leviathan atm. Except in Leviathan I'm not lvl'ing WAR (which is only 7), but my lvl 42 DRG. I often sit there for 4 hour's without a party because of better melee's. So if I'm a WAR, and there's a better tank around, and a better melee around (there usually is except in the lower levels), won't I have the same problem as I'm having with DRG?
And maybe someone could throw together a guide for WAR like Russian did with PLD.
And maybe someone could throw together a guide for WAR like Russian did with PLD.
Lobivopis wrote:
13. Don't invite a THF, a PLD already has all the tools he needs to keep hate, THFs more often then not only lead to trouble.
I couldn't disagree more. Especially at higher levels, a THF is crucial to holding aggro. Those first 30 seconds are when a PLD's hate control is the weakest, and having a THF start out with a SAnTA off the PLD is *THE* best surefire way to hold aggro on the tank. If your THF's are causing more trouble than they're worth, then they need to pick a new job. I find DRK/THF/PLD combos to be highly effective in this.
THF pulls
DRG 'vokes/jump to grab aggro
PLD sets up behind mob
THF SAnTA
PLD vokes (and flash, depending on PLD's tactics)
DRG Super Jumps
By doing this, you've effectively given the PLD a lot more hate than just what their tools offer, and created no hate on the DRG because of Super Jump. We were doing this in Garlaige, and even if our BLM began the Freeze chain too early, I was still holding hate over a Distortion bursted Freeze (Read: >1k damage). THFs are the FIRST DD I look for in any party. They do as much damage as a DRK in most cases, and they HELP me hold hate instead of me having to compete with them.
Ah hell, I can't help it, I'm putting this thread in my sig too. XD
(edit) I couldn't agree more with the original post in this thread. Now if only more people could understand this. ;_;
Edited, Mon Jul 12 06:53:44 2004 by AlphaJew
Quote:
13. Don't invite a THF, a PLD already has all the tools he needs to keep hate, THFs more often then not only lead to trouble.
I disagree
SA+TA -> Provoke -> Flash = hardly need for anything else MP related until the next provoke
if that doesn't get you a lot of aggro, tell the ranger Barrage/Sidewinder isn't a good idea at the start of the fight
I swear this needs to be a sticky so many players are fing clueless about managing hate.
/rant
Level 60 Ranting
If you think a BLM can make a PLD life rough try to have a nuke happy one with a War tanking. Why can't these fin ego monsters playing BLM not understand they can use a gd debuff to start and not bombing level III nukes from the start. Argh then the whm has to use cure IV on them and the hate management is over it is a struggle to just survive. I swear I am in one party we are mad chaining many chain 5 no hate issues and no one dies get almost 10k xp in 3 hours another with a war/ninja Tank then in another party with clueless mages we cant get 1000 xp without players dieing from more hate management the whm only casts CURE IV overnuking and BLM just getting his jollies from seeing big damage we never seem to get to chain 2 I wonder why.....
I just wish sometimes I can reach into my screen and pull the mages heads out of thier a$$es. Hey whm try Regen 2 it works well try using Cure 2 or 3 if that covers it instead of waiting until you need 4 cure iv 2 times in a row before the tank is dead. BLM please try debuffing and waiting a for the second voke atleast before getting your jollies and if your a melee wait until the tank has atleast 2 vokes in before doing a skill chain and if a War is tanking let him either go first if not in chain or finish the chain the hate will go to him...
/rant off
Man it amazes me how bad it can get at times and other times how well it works with smart players such a huge difference in just understanding HATE!!!!!
THE FFXI HATE SYSTEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
/rant
Level 60 Ranting
If you think a BLM can make a PLD life rough try to have a nuke happy one with a War tanking. Why can't these fin ego monsters playing BLM not understand they can use a gd debuff to start and not bombing level III nukes from the start. Argh then the whm has to use cure IV on them and the hate management is over it is a struggle to just survive. I swear I am in one party we are mad chaining many chain 5 no hate issues and no one dies get almost 10k xp in 3 hours another with a war/ninja Tank then in another party with clueless mages we cant get 1000 xp without players dieing from more hate management the whm only casts CURE IV overnuking and BLM just getting his jollies from seeing big damage we never seem to get to chain 2 I wonder why.....
I just wish sometimes I can reach into my screen and pull the mages heads out of thier a$$es. Hey whm try Regen 2 it works well try using Cure 2 or 3 if that covers it instead of waiting until you need 4 cure iv 2 times in a row before the tank is dead. BLM please try debuffing and waiting a for the second voke atleast before getting your jollies and if your a melee wait until the tank has atleast 2 vokes in before doing a skill chain and if a War is tanking let him either go first if not in chain or finish the chain the hate will go to him...
/rant off
Man it amazes me how bad it can get at times and other times how well it works with smart players such a huge difference in just understanding HATE!!!!!
THE FFXI HATE SYSTEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I dont know if this was said before but PLEASE all you THF's try not to use Trick Attack+Sneak Attack half way through Provoke. Wait till the PLD's voke is ready and then use SA/TA then we can Voke and get hate back without haveing ppl get hammerd for 15 seconds cause you did not wanna wait.
Wow. I just saw my post the first time I saw this. Way back in April... geez, I musta been like level 30 or something.
Edited, Thu Jul 15 19:53:10 2004 by Sarlos
Edited, Thu Jul 15 19:53:10 2004 by Sarlos
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