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#1 Jan 26 2004 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
Hi all,
When assembling parties, often I am the "second hand melee" person as a mnk/war, while pure warriors or paladins are the tanks.

In case of the paladin: yes, this class is made to be a tank. But as far as monks go: I experience we monks have a decent rate of evasion, we have guard (reduces incoming damage) and we have counterattack. In even the hardest battles against INT mobs (like in qufim) i evade or counter or guard about 10-20% of the incoming attacks.

Take this and compare it with the minor lower defense a monk has compared to a warrior, I say monks are just as good a tank, or maybe even better.

other thoughts on this?
#2 Jan 26 2004 at 10:17 PM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
I think that at lower levels monks are a viable alternative to a war/pal tank. I often have higher hp than the main tank(unless they're galka), and I have increased evasion(even more with dodge), as well as counter. I don't know how well this works at higher levels, as I am only in 20s, but my monk works pretty well as main tank.
#3 Jan 27 2004 at 3:31 AM Rating: Decent
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324 posts
While yes, Monks have High HPs (and make an excellent sub for a WAR) they wear a sliding scale of armor that gets worse and worse making you a cure sink if you were to main tank. I think it's pretty stupid of Square to do this, but because of your DEF, is why you are asked to be secondary damage, especially as you get higher and higher in level.
#4 Jan 27 2004 at 3:54 AM Rating: Decent
So I understand a monk is a cure sink... but at what level? I am a lvl25monk/war, and I seem to be very capable of outdoing the most in damage (except for some advanced jobs) and I need less healing.

I do have VERY expensive equipment to boost my skills and attributes, but i wonder at what level a monk gets chosen over anything else as a tank.
#5 Jan 27 2004 at 4:15 AM Rating: Decent
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324 posts
Monks start getting really crummy in their armor in the higher 20's if I remember correctly. Your damage capabilites are never in question (Monks can do quite a nice bit of damage, especially as they get their Martial Arts bonuses) it's your gear options and low job defensive nature. Unfortunatly, alot of jobs seem to do the monks job better (Like some advanced jobs) I havent even seen on in a PT since I passed your level. You make unfortunatly poor tanks (why do they give you so much HP and yet such crummy def?) and get routinely out damaged by other jobs.

a monks life seems to suck =/

Maybe the good news is there's less competition for your job's slot in a pt? (I know I see alot of DRGs like myself out there, and even more DRKs, and we all fill the same role -_-;)
#6 Jan 27 2004 at 5:20 AM Rating: Decent
*sobs*
I intented to stay a monk for quite some time. At least till lvl30, and then start a new advanced job.

I do notice, as the Ryoga says, that my equipment seems to be crappy between lvl20 and 30... Somehow, my strike bahgnaks still work fine at lvl25, being a lvl14 weapon, as do other pieces of equipment.
#7 Jan 27 2004 at 8:27 AM Rating: Decent
Drama Nerdvana
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20,674 posts
I am lvl 26monk/10war i dont have prob getting group most time but by now im no good as main tank.

Im a real good back up tank if things get bad or if main tank needs aggro pulled off, and monk weapon abilities are good for a lot of skill chains.

But yeah if i had to main tank it i would be a MP sink for healer.

I do have all lvl 21-26 gear on me though and i dont think it sucks, i hit hard, and

Quote:
I do notice, as the Ryoga says, that my equipment seems to be crappy between lvl20 and 30... Somehow, my strike bahgnaks still work fine at lvl25, being a lvl14 weapon, as do other pieces of equipment.


Ack ack ack i cant stress it enough to keep up to date on armor and weapons, it might only be a couple points but man alive to they make a difference. Hate to sound like one of those peeps that think they know everything but its the plain simple truth. You dont have to go out and buy new gear every time you level but a general rule of thumb for main gear is that once its 10 lvls below you no matter how good its time to lose it.
____________________________
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
#8 Jan 27 2004 at 8:37 AM Rating: Decent
Ok, don't want to be insulting or flaming or everything else...

But please, don't talk about thing you don't know :

I'm a monk/warrior : 35/15 (need to boost my warrior), and be sure that I'm not so bad a tanking...

I'm Galka, so my HP are 837 by now...

My defense, with advanced gear is not so bad, considering how many warriors in my server are playing with 2-handed weapons...

My damage with top-notch hand-to-hand weapon outdamage most of the warrior and even advanced class (not dark knight)...

I can renkei a lot and better than most of the warrior I have encountered (the diversity of the WS of a monk is a real plus)...

My evasion is second to the thief and my guarding reduce damage a lot. So I take damage but often I take nothing or really reduced.

When fighting mob using damaging magic, my HP and vitality shine...

About Paladin : ok, paladin warrior are really good at tanking, but I think my galka monk/warrior is always better than a Taru Paladin : the last one I played with, died after pulling 2 crawlers... I had 300 more hp than him, and when zoning, high evasion is better than high defense...

For all warrior, paladin, and other class that seems concerned, don't take it badly : It's just some personnal experience on my server...

regards,

Nolife

#9 Jan 27 2004 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
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463 posts
I played mnk to 30... and I was a tank majority of the time while leveling.. not just because of HP..

There are many levels where wars and mnks wear the same exact armor (harnesses).. bone, beetle, etc..

I had this conversation in another thread yesterday..

mnk/war has better VIT than war/mnk at every level.. so in the levels where they wear the same armor.. when both have war's DEF UP ability, the Monk will be a better tank than the war because defense will be equal and vit will be higher for the monk.

That is all you gotta say. Sure, when the monk is wearing beetle and the war is wearing chain, the war has better def.. so it's a toss up between better def and better vit.. def seems to get the nod for being more important.. I haven't seen a chart showing what is more important and what helps take less damage.. def or vit.. in anycase, at certain levels, the def is equal and vit is higher for mnk... but if the war is totally up to date with the best armor possible, sure they probably have a bit higher def if they are a level or two above the harness that mnk can wear.

I got sick of mnk... so I only play that to farm or hunt nm's.. but I lace up the mitt's every once in awhile to lay the smack down.
#10 Jan 27 2004 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
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518 posts
Tanking is not all about def/evade/armor it has a lot to do with hate. Yes you get hate with hits but unless you have a war sub you miss out on provoke which means you are part warrior. But in higher levels unless you can control hate and get hate in a moments notice, you arent a good tank.
#11 Jan 27 2004 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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58 posts
About the Paladin:

It's not just his fairly high defense that makes him a good tank, more importantly imo (after 3 trips thru the dunes, and in the middle of my 3rd thru qufim) its his *aggro control*.

I've been in parties where the mages have gone an hour without getting hit once b/c of the paladin. generally when the pld does lose aggro, its b/c of some heavy casting early before hes had the chance to lay down his 2nd provoke and a few cure1s (or a cure2) or b/c say the drk just used last resort and opened the fight with a crit hit and then a renkei.

by the middle to end of the fight tho, after 2-3vokes and a chunk of mana, the monster will be glued to the pld; he offers safetey to the casters far better than any other class at least until level 30 in my experience.
#12 Jan 27 2004 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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518 posts
As i stated above..your agro control is just controlling hate. And I dont group unless the tank is a pld, otherwise I will prob die.
#13 Jan 27 2004 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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216 posts
For the Galka Monk post:

There's more to tanking then HP and hate, too. When I play my WHM, I could care less how much HP you have, to be honest. VIT and DEF are the utmost priority, to me. I posted this in another thread, but I'll say it again. If you have 150hp, I can keep you alive as long as you're not getting *pasted* with every hit. And with their low DEF, MNK's do get pasted. Yes, with high evades, counters, and Dodge stacked, you can make a fair tank - at lower levels. But relying on a percentage chance to not get hit sucks. It's either spectacular success or spectacular failure, and a fair chance at both. With a WAR/* tank, it's usually just "good success."

As a WHM, I can tell you that of all the classes, I hate having a MNK tank the most. Why? Because that huge HP total gives them a false sense of security, but their low armor means they get *clobbered*. And my Cures heal a set amount of HP, which means they're worth far less on a MNK than on a WAR.

Put it this way: The WAR gets hit for 35. The MNK gets hit by the same mob for 45. My Cure gives 30-33 HP back. I can heal 86% of the WAR's damage taken with Cure1. I can only heal 67% of the MNK's damage taken with the same spell.

That said, I have to add that I love MNK/WAR as my backup tank. They can do good damage when they're not tanking (with Boost stacked), and if push comes to shove they can eat some hits with Dodge stacked. I do usually demand a WAR as a main tank (if no PLD's are available), but I'll take a MNK as the backup any day. A WAR as a backup tank doesn't do as much damage when he's not tanking (which he won't be 90% of the time, if he's the backup).
#14 Jan 27 2004 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
Drama Nerdvana
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20,674 posts
First i would like to say that im a Monk and i love the class

Simple fact is this

1. Monks have tons of HP and hi evasion ect. but they take a hit like a girl. Especially at high levels.

2.Tanks get hit more and have less HP but they can take hit much better than Monk.

Being a tank is about two Things- keeping Hate and being a Punching bag.

Sure Monk has more HP but the evasion boost doesnt make up for fact that they cant take a hit, it doesnt even out with a warrior/ Pally who can take a hit much better.

Monks lose HP so fast that it sucks up a lot of mana from Healer which means more down time which is bad. Perferably you would have a Warrior or Pally to tank, not saying that a monk cant just not the perferred role and i find my Monk much better as a relief tanker in case main tank having trouble so we can switch aggro.

Not trying to bash Monks, im one myself and im tempted to goto lvl 75 as one but they just not made to be main tank.
____________________________
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
#15 Jan 27 2004 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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190 posts
After lvl30 monks start lagging behind on defense, and their aggro holding abilities are not good at all. So, monks do NOT make good tanks.

However, monks are one of the best damage dealers in the game. The damage from renkeis is just sick add high rate of attack to it.

Monk is a great class to play, it's just not the best tank out there.

Rushian lvl57 Paladin
Bismarck
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