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#1 Jan 22 2004 at 8:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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I have a problem. Being a THF means you rely heavily on other PT members (usually the tank, but not always.) to execute their Sneak or Trick Attacks. Now missing a few times is aggravating, but I can generally handle myself. After the first few misses I ask relatively nicely for the tank (or anyone else who's provoking) to stand still. Whoever came up with the idea that "manual dodging" is the slightest bit effective should be shot. Well..after numerous attempts at getting the tank stay put so I can hit the mob, I go completely ballistic. (I know, it's only a game, I'm obsessed.) Normally I'd just disband, but you know how hard it can be to find a party in Kazham. Anyone else having problems controlling their anger with incompetant people?
#2 Jan 22 2004 at 8:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Especially in Kazham (2nd jungle) it can be very frustrating that other pt-members keep moving around instead of just holding position. The area to fight in is already cramped enough to manouvre as a thief, let alone having to guess where the mob will point his nose to..
Usually just saying that they need to stand still works, together wit ha macro warning them to stand still just before the SA.

The ones that keep moving around because they strongly believe that manual dodging works should be sent into the jungle alone where they can do all the gob-dodging they wish.
#3 Jan 22 2004 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
Drama Nerdvana
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I put up post bashing "Manual Dodging" and my karma got blasted. But really how retarded is it. Running around in circles trying to dodge a mob thats gonna hit you no matter what? For the rest of the party its a giant pain. For the thieves out there its as bad as it gets.

I was in party out in Khazam and some guy was talking about reading that Manual Dodging post, he swore it was true, every pull he would run in circles, then everyone would have to chase after him and mob to actuallly attack it. It made things 10x more complicated for group and made it difficult for the group to kill even a wimpy Tough.

We all asked politely for the guy to just do things normally and he still wouldnt, eventually every single person in group other than him said this "pull like a normal person or leave group" he started doing things normally and were killing IT's in no time and we broke him of a bad habit.
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#4 Jan 22 2004 at 8:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh yeah, i now that problem too well. I'm currently playing a Mithra THF/WAR lvl28. Like you do i usualy wait some fights before taking action and telling the tanks to get on one side of the mob. If they do, ok, if they don't i'm starting to pull the mobs. Most time this is the only way to get your sneak on the mob. But i'm sure it will get more frustrating when you try to do sneak/trick and the tank doesn't understand what he should do.
The worst thing are noob parties (noob not because of lvl but because they totaly lack the understanding that it would be good for them if they listen to you) which surround the mob...
Every time they do so i stand back and do nothing. When they ask i tell them that i'm not going to fight until they listen to me.
Or i disband.

I don't get it. Why don't people want someone dealing about 100-800dmg with one strike.
#5 Jan 22 2004 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
Imaginary Friend
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I Always have a Problem with my Temper... over the smallest things... But I usually don't let it get past the tips of my fingers..... My roomate will ask me if I'm alright when I'm pointing at my monitor, shouting, " ******* ******* IDIOTS!!! Morons!! .. these people are ALL ******* GODDAM ******* MORONS!! ARRGGGGH!!" and other such rantings go lofting through the house..and me getting up and running around my room, punching my chair and wahtnot.. But it usually ends there... I don't try to make other people feel bad... even if they do somthing stupid.... because they usually know what they did anyway...

It's kind off like Road-Rage(and i love my R.R).. I can shout and curse people all I want.. and they can't hear me... It's all for personal venting purposes....

So While I'm cursing and shouting about my PT members .. In-Game I'm usually like .... "oh That's OK.. just be more careful Please" or somthing like that... Why spread negitivity... because it Will spread like cancer throughout a Whole group.... which Sucks.
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#6 Jan 22 2004 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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LOL Kelvyquayo, im exactly the same way. Someone will do something absolutely stupid and in game ill be like "thats okay, heres how you can avoid that in future" ill be nice as nice can be and person will be like "wow thanks for being so cool about it" but all the while im cursing like a sailor at the screen.

Now that my LS has teamspeak imma have to watch out about that, not that i would get frustrated with them they all uber cool but im sure they wouldnt want to listen into my crazy swearing at a computer screen at someone that cant hear me a couple thousand miles away.
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#7 Jan 22 2004 at 11:47 AM Rating: Decent
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lol Kelvyquayo
#8 Jan 22 2004 at 12:10 PM Rating: Default
anger management? FFXI? Cummon!!! Its not cstrike! So what if someone's in your way, as long as you're not out of range, you could have your back turned to the mob and still hit it. You bash "Manual Dodging" because its a hit or miss whether you move or stand still... I know this, yet I still "manually dodge". Only thing is I call it moving around. By Circling the opponent I can see if there are any other agro's that might have linked or are nearby (close enough to agro in on the fight as well).

However, what I'm not understanding is how you can hate and bash "Manual Dodging" cause its a hit or miss either way... just like rolling the dice in older games. However, same system holds true the other way around. You're not going to miss a target because some n00b is "manually dodging" in your way. You'll only miss the target if you were going to miss the target anyways. Therefore, relax, have fun, and be smart with your thief... you're a sneaky character, not a tank. I usually try ranged attacks if I can't seem to land some blows in battle.

Edited, Thu Jan 22 12:10:33 2004 by ElvaanKrem
#9 Jan 22 2004 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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ElvaanKrem wrote:
However, what I'm not understanding is how you can hate and bash "Manual Dodging" cause its a hit or miss either way...


It's not hit or miss either way. Sneak Attack REQUIRES a thief to be behind the mob. If you're running in circles the mob is spinning and is nearly impossible to get behind. If you are behind the mob and use your Sneak Attack, it will NEVER miss.
#10 Jan 22 2004 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
You're not going to miss a target because some n00b is "manually dodging"


My guess is he never played a thief beyond 9 with a group. I'm also wondering if he is ever not the main tank. First off Thief special Abilities (Backstab, trick attack) are positional. If you keep moving and causing the Mob to move you make it next to impossible for them to contribute the massive damage that they are there to do. Secondly if you cause the mob to do anything more than turn you risk making the mob 'To far to attack' or 'Can't see your target’ for the other members of your party, and lose their assistance as well. If you are fighting alone you can dance around as much as you want but with a party be a party member and try and help the others out.

Even if "Manual dodging" had any effect on being hit it is not worth the headache to the rest of the team. Let the White and Red mage worry about your health and how much damage you take. That is what they are there for. And if you want to see what’s around you just can unlock your camera from the target and spin it around so you can look without aggravating your party.
#11 Jan 22 2004 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
I don't think most people think manual dodging works but often tanks and others have to move around a bit because the camera angle is such that its hard to see anything around you while fighting. The only way to move the camera is to move your char. So asking someone to stand perfectly still the whole fight so you can do sneak attack is obsured!

Furthermore, another flaw that makes this worse is how Square designed sneak attack. Why would they require the monster to stand perfectly still for you to launch the attack? It doesn't make sense and the camera control needs work!
#12 Jan 22 2004 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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2,071 posts
It's not just Sneak Attack and huge damage the tank is losing if you use this "manual dodging" (which doesn't work very well in this game btw).

Trick Attack? Quite honestly an EXCELLENT help for aggro management. Once a Thief has done Sneak + Trick Attack (Fuidama) for me as a tank (this is at the beginning of the battle, before I provoke off the puller), the mob will most likely NEVER leave aggro off me. As well, simple Trick Attack can do wonders in helping me keep aggro, in addition to my ******* of aggro management.
#13 Jan 22 2004 at 12:53 PM Rating: Decent
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298 posts
Im no theif, but I know how hard they can be to use with a crappy group. I had a theif in my group once in Yhoator jungle and our group tank stood still but just couldnt hold agro for crap. The theif barely ever got in any sneak sttack or trick attacks. I have seen the ones who do try to "manual dodge" but group with them much. I don't have the patience to be a theif, too many bad parties out there.
#14 Jan 22 2004 at 3:19 PM Rating: Default
ok, thief I can see your point. I know sneak attack has to be performed while behind the creature... I never have a problemt staying behind it, however, cause I use auto-run with the target locked on so I move with it anywhere it goes, and/or I'll strafe around it till I'm where I need to be. Also, everyone in the party can hold perfectly still and the NPC may STILL turn to attack someone else (if they're surrounding the npc rather than standing side by side infront of it).

Also, my thf is 13 tyvm, and no I haven't played in a party because I still obtain decent exp solo. However, I don't believe I get sneak attack till 15, so no, I haven't gotten the priveledge of playing with the ability if thats what you meant.
#15 Jan 22 2004 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay Elvannkrem hunting dynamics much different in group that solo. If your by yourself and wanna Manual dodge go for it.

In a group its a uber pain. Not only for thieves but other classes as well. Sure you can use /follow on the mob but its confusing, hard to keep track of everything that is going on and unnecessary.

In group simple = good. If mob is sitting in one spot even if its turning around between multiple tanks its still easier for thief. Also easier for tanks to perform skill chains which are a must for grouping. The more complicated you make things the more chance that something is going to go wrong.

Its more of a hinderance than a help for groups in the end. And since all the xp your gonna get from lvl 15-75 is mainly gonna come from grouping Manual Dodging doesnt pay. Plus i promise you that if your in group and decide to Man Dodge someone they prob gonna ask you to stop.

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#16 Jan 22 2004 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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bhodisattva wrote:
Plus i promise you that if your in group and decide to Man Dodge someone they prob gonna ask you to stop.


After about the 10th time of asking nicely it'll sound something along the lines of F#@KING STAND STILL!!!

I admit it...I'm guilty...I said that to my tank last night.
#17 Jan 22 2004 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
lol... well at any rate, thank you for giving me a cival reply rather than treating me like some n00b. When I stop to think about it I do not "manual dodge" when I'm partied (I do have a lvl 16 mnk that I party with). I do, however, move around till I find a good angle to fight the mob from. With 3 or 4 people hitting the same thing, there really is no need to be all dancy.
#18 Jan 22 2004 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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951 posts
Manual dodge is all in your head....dumb to do solo and in a group. If you want to be able to look around you while fighting get a controler - attack the mob with camera locked - get in a nice position - unlock camera - rotate camera to your heart's content.
I am playing as a whm/blm and as a thf/war(soon nin) and if any classes can tell you how annoying manual dodging attempts are it would be these. As whm I watch the mob's actions to see who recieves status effects if you are all running everywhere I have no way of knowing what just happened. And missing SA as thf means that the hit that would have just landed 120+dmg (500ish+ past level 33) now just did 7dmg...please tell me that you see the difference here.

Please stop the insanity people =P


Edited, Thu Jan 22 16:18:00 2004 by Dhita
#19 Jan 22 2004 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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147 posts
A quick note, since no one has mentioned this yet. Even if your camera is locked on a target, you can still rotate your camera by about 15-30 degrees in either direction.

If you're using compact keyboard setup, just hold the shift key while trying to change the camera angle. That's it. Pretty convenient, works most of the time your camera is locked (ie also after a death).

Also, just to anger all of you manual dodge haters, there are a few special attacks that you can manually dodge by leaving the range of the mobs attack. I wish something came readily to mind, but nothing does. I'm not talking about goblin bomb either, some attacks that target one person and have a fairly long mob "casting time" can be avoided. Of course, this doesn't change the fact that you shouldn't try to do this if you're the tank...still not worth the trouble.

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#20 Jan 22 2004 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
so, Dhita, are you telling other people how to play now? Who cares what anyone ELSE does when THEY'RE playing solo. Unless they run a train right for you, if they're ******** off it's their problem. You might find moving around pointless... while I find standing still hitting something is a little boring... which is why I never was able to get into the previous ff's. Point being is we all have different reasons as to why we like the game... if it makes us n00b's... so be it, but at least let us be "n00bs" and enjoy it.

Edited, Thu Jan 22 17:20:20 2004 by ElvaanKrem
#21 Jan 22 2004 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
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I have a question for all the people who invite a thief and then refuse to help him do his specials..

Why did you invite him?

Edited, Thu Jan 22 17:31:19 2004 by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#22 Jan 25 2004 at 2:41 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Why did you invite him?


Obvious answer would be Treasure Hunter. Sadly, I don't think many players realize they can actually do things in battle.
#23 Jan 25 2004 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
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Quote:
Obvious answer would be Treasure Hunter. Sadly, I don't think many players realize they can actually do things in battle.


You haven't seen real skillchain damage till you have a THF in the chain doing an SA/TA/VB or DE. It magnifies the chain effect considerably.

For example, vs Nest Beetles Double Thrust -> SA/TA/VB -> Water II does about the following (approximate depending on luck and how much TP you have)


50-100 from Double Thrust
300-400 from SA/TA/VB
150-200 from Distortion chain
150-200 from Magic Burst

Edited, Sun Jan 25 09:08:09 2004 by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#24 Jan 25 2004 at 7:44 PM Rating: Decent
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664 posts
Mainly me (18 thf with Fire Sword) and the sam were trading tanking when we did this.

Allies: 17SAM, 18THF (16RDM, 16THF, 16BST)
Chain: Blade:Enpi -> SA/Fast Blade = Distortion
Enpi: No idea on damage, prolly around 60
SA/FB: 92 damage
Distortion: 59 damage
Result: One Dead Dhalmal

We tried it on a Zu too, I did about 150 on a SA/FB and and the mob died before Distortion effect even hit 0.o


Edited, Sun Jan 25 19:50:42 2004 by Ralluwen
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