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Is a Bard a "real" party member?Follow

#27 Jan 21 2004 at 7:27 PM Rating: Good
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ROFL Milanthes! I must be one of the few people here to get that.

"Why can't you just make 10 go higher?"
"... This one goes to 11."


Too bad there aren't amps you can equip. If there were we could have some tarutaru dancing around a little stone henge.
#28 Jan 21 2004 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
I have a 40-something bard right now, and I do somewhat agree with them not being a real member of the party. You don't really do that much, except make everything much faster indirectly. You can turn a decent party good, or a great party into an insane leveling spree (2-3 levels for everyone), but I still don't think you're a real member of the party - you just kind of run around and keep everything well-oiled. I used to laugh with my linkshell about how I really don't do anything, I just run around and play the lute.

If I were making a purely xp'ing party, I'd take a bard. If I were making a party only to fight one super-tough monster, I wouldn't take a bard. Well, there is one exception to that statement - if the monster is something like Ifrit that has wicked elemental spells, then I'd take a bard along for carols (BCNMs included for lullaby).
#29 Jan 21 2004 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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656 posts
You've just never PT'd with me Pikko :p I'm a great RDM on Garuda, just I'm not anywhere close to your level range.. yet. That being said, my ideal PT would have a BRD also.. they're just so awesome.
#30 Jan 21 2004 at 11:28 PM Rating: Decent
Its kinda funny to me that anyone says "I'd take a bard over a redmage." when its not like a one or the other kinda deal. Anyone in their right mind will take BOTH if they are lucky enough to be able to get them both in their party.

That being said a redmage is a more complex class and requires someone who KNOWS what they are doing. While the bard is a very simple class thats easy to play. Having said that dollars to donuts its more likely a Bard will know how to play their class well than a redmage.

Everytime I see a moron playing redmage it severly pains me because thats the reason you hear people even say that, they were probably in a group with the redmage moron from hell who didnt know how to play the class.

Eryx, Kujata Server 56 Redmage / 25 Blackmage.
#31 Jan 21 2004 at 11:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Might have something to do with that whole "Spoony Bard" thing...

(they actually have that quoted in the game! See if you can find it! :)


I could be wrong, but is that from FFIV. I think it was refering to prince Edward who was a bard.
#32 Jan 22 2004 at 12:01 AM Rating: Decent
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285 posts
Even if it's high level....


at lvl 70, BRDs get a song with a party-wide Reraise effect.

'nuff said. :)
#33 Jan 22 2004 at 1:02 AM Rating: Decent
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682 posts
Every time I partied with a Bard in the group we had much less down time and we got multiple levels in only a few hours, so in my honest opinion Bards kick **** (a good bard will also melee when he can to help out every little bit).
#34 Jan 22 2004 at 3:19 AM Rating: Decent
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61 posts
I think Bards count 100% as a party member. I had the joy of partying this past weekend with a very good bard from lv 27-30. This party rotated various members for a span of 6 hours but the bard stayed through the whole time. Even though he was a level or two higher than everyone and bringing down the exp a little, we didn't boot him out. In fact we refused to let him leave the group. Hehe. How quickly we were pulling and killing made up for the lesser exp. He significantly reduced the downtime and when I seriously needed to regain mana as a WHM he'd go into "Super Bard Healer" mode and take over healing temporarily. I knew I wanted to be a Bard when I hit 30, but seeing an actual bard in action, made me decide it was a worthwhile investment to be one.

While not essential to a party, Bards definitely definitely help out. I'd take a bard in my party any day.
#35 Jan 22 2004 at 7:55 AM Rating: Excellent
16 posts
I'm a level 52 Bard on Slyph (name: Agenais). I can venture a guess why people aren't seeing too many Bards, from my own personal experience.

For the first few levels (till around 15 or so) Bard's really don't make all that much of a difference, and with it being difficult to solo, it can be very disheartening. Things will start picking up later, though, and XP will start rolling in. However, here are some things to consider if you plan on playing a Bard.

Bard's basically wear the same gear as Thieves, so go ahead and do some fighting with the group after you cast your songs. The Bard's dynamics, however, will change at 25 with Mage Ballad, which is the beginning point of where you'll have songs that actually benefit a mage class. As a result of this, you'll do more singing than fighting.

As you get further down the road, the difference between the damage you'll do, and the fighters around you will become very noticable, at which point you'll move more into the back line, and more than likely, into a Mage sub.

What most people don't understand when they say that a WHM is what a Bard should sub is that in order for a Bard to sub it, they have to change out nearly all of their equipment to accomidate that. Bard is just about the only class that has to do things to hurt the Main class to make the Sub class useful.

In addition, Bards have a hard enough time getting party members to properly seperate so that melees aren't getting MP regen, and mages aren't getting accuracy boosts. Trying to do that in additon to casting spells, keeping an eye on the mob to cast Magic Finale when needed, party members HP, keeping an eye on Lullabied monsters (in case of a bad pull or a "pop"), and trying to find the opprotunity to rest to regen MP, makes for a -very- busy job. Especially if party members don't want to cooperate in keep the mages / melee's seperate: it only makes the Bard's job even harder.

As Bard gets to the higher levels, the less he can do on his own. Want to run out and grab your RSE? Better bring a group. Want to do some farming? Better bring a friend. You'll find yourself using your 2-Hour and half of your mana to keep yourself alive in a battle against a monster that's "Too Weak to Be Worthwhile".

You'll come to relize that you simply cannot function without a group, and a fair-sized one at that (4+ members), as the Bard's abilities don't effect any one person enough to make the kind of difference you would need in a small group or solo.
This could become an issue later, since the Bard's sole purpose in the game is to make everything easier for the group members. The easier the Bard makes things for the group members, the harder things are for the Bard.

Another thing to look out for is something every player hates: stagnation. While the Bard has a vast number of songs (80+), only a mere fraction of them will see any use: Minuet, Madrigal, Ballad, Paeon, Prelude (if there's a Ranger in the group), and the occasional (Spirited) Etude. Paeon and Etude go out the window if you have a particularly fast puller.

The remainder of the Bard's party buff songs are far too situational, or to weak, to be of any, real, practical use. If they could be cast without it taking up a space in the 2 song buffer, then they could be worth using, but otherwise, leave the things these songs do: Carol (elemental protection), Minne (defense up), March (attack speed up) to the White Mage (Barwatera + etc. / Protect / Haste, respectively).


Just a tip, though, to make your life easier while also helping people who haven't been grouped with a Bard before become more familiar with the songs, have a little snippet of what the song does in your macro. Here's an example from a macro I have for Mage's Ballad.

/song "Mage Ballad"
/wait 2
/p "Gotta let your soul glow!" 1 MP every 1.5 seconds.

This not only tells people what the song does, but it gives them time to move into range if they aren't already. It also helps to have a little something that's entertaining to read as well: it helps morale. The happier a group member is, the longer they'll want to stay, and the more EXP / money / goodies you all will get.

One more note to perspective Bards: Flutes are more potent (easier to get an attack song to stick on a mob) while Harps have greater range. You'll find yourself using Flutes more than anything else throughout the game, but build up both, as nearly every instrument above level 60 is a Harp. As for what pluses to songs to keep an eye out for on a instrument with a bonus to:

Requiem, Elegy, Lullaby, Paeon, and Madrigal.

+1 doesn't always equate to the same thing, however. A +1 to Minuet allows your Minuet to give a +38 to your attack instead of a +37: a minescule difference. However, a +1 to Lullaby -doubles- the amount of time a mob is asleep (ever wonder why the Mary's Horn goes for so much?).

And a few somethings for people partied with Bards:

1st: Every song for the party has a cast time of 8 seconds (with the exception of Prelude which only effects one person, and has a cast time of 4 seconds). Attack songs (Requiem, Finale, Lullaby, Elegy, and Threnody) have a cast time of 2 seconds. -Every- song has a 24 second recast timer on it.

2nd: In most cases, different levels of the same song stacks: therefore, Minuet II and Minuet III would stack with each other. This, however, doesn't apply to the attack songs.

3rd: Please, please, please don't tell the Bard what and whatnot to sing unless you need a mob weakened to a particular elemental for a spell / skillchain (this particularly goes to the mage/melee hybrids out there: Dark Knights and Paladins). Bards have more than enough on their plate without someone breathing down their neck about what songs to sing.
If you are a melee needing Mage Ballad for your MP, either wait till the end of battle, or step away from the mob to grab Ballad when the Bard casts it on the mages, or have the party organize itself in a way where pure Melees are on one side of the mob so they keep their Minuet and Madrigal, the Hybrids on another so they get, say, Madrigal and Ballad, and the Mages behind the Bard so they also get Ballad when the Bard casts it for the Hybrids.

4th: The Bard's 2-Hour doubles the power of all of his song effects. A Paeon IV that was healing 4 HP every 1.5 seconds is now healing 8 HP. An enemy that would sleep for 17 seconds with Lullaby is now asleep for 34 seconds. A Bard may use this if he catches that a battle is going bad early on, or he may use it to cut down on the downtime after a particular tough battle.

5th: If there's a bad pull or a mob that "pop"'s in the middle of a party in mid battle, keep your focus on one mob at a time so that the Bard can keep the other one asleep. This means no AoE's (-Ga spells, Circle Scythe, Cyclone, etc). 24 seconds on a Lullaby recast is a long time for a Bard to wait when a creature is beating on him from a misplaced attack.

6th: The last, and by FAR the most important rule: keep mages and melee's seperate! This is generally more of a problem of the mage's than the melee's, for they sometimes have a habit on sitting in middle of the fighters, or on top of the mob itself.
If you're a White Mage, Attack UP and Accuracy UP isn't going to do you -any- good. Hang away from the fighters so the Bard doesn't have to run to awkard and dangerous positions to give you the benefit of a song that wouldn't help a melee (and viceversa).

I have more I could write, but I think I've rambled on enough for now. :) By the way, feel free to thank your Bard if they're doing a good job. A little thanks can do a long way to a class that puts in more work than most people realize. ^_^
#36 Jan 22 2004 at 7:57 AM Rating: Decent
16 posts
Aldrek, I feel your pain. Oh, how do I feel your pain. A Bard / WHM does the work of 3 people, literally.
#37 Jan 22 2004 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
The few times Ive had the fortune to party with a bard, its always rocked.

Dont confuse your casters however.
Reds are good for controlling monsters.
Whites are good for healing.
blacks are good for nuking.
Bards are good to reinforce the qualities of the other members, but songs take time to cast and for songs to work.
#38 Jan 22 2004 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
Props to Ghostpilot, for writing what everyone needs to read about before partying with a bard - the hardest working class in the game. When I got to the part about keeping melee and mages separate, I just had to laugh. I can't count the number of times this situation has played out in my parties when people don't know how to work with a bard:

"Everyone, it's real important that you keep as much space as possible between mages and melee, ok? It makes my job a lot easier because I can switch up songs for both."

"Can you mages move back a little further?"

"Main tank, when you provoke you need to stand in the same spot and do it so we don't all get crunched together."

"I still need more space guys, mages back here, fighters up front."

"Stop creeping backwards! Try to keep your spacing during the fight!"

"For the love of God, give me some ******* space between the mages and melee!"

I've only gotten to the last statement with one party in particular. Most everyone who's passed the third grade easily gets into the swing of it after a couple mobs. Bard is certainly not easy, and it certainly is tiring. While the rest of the classes (except the puller) are standing around scratching their butts, you're still running around playing songs. The tell-tale sign that your party isn't organized enough for a bard is if he starts to melee the mob for an extended period of time. That means he can only get off one set of songs reliably on everyone and doesn't have anything else to do for a long while.
#39 Jan 22 2004 at 9:39 AM Rating: Decent
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at lvl 70, BRDs get a song with a party-wide Reraise effect.


Question about reraise. Can you choose the time you are raised (e.g. prompted to allow the raise like normal)? If not, it would seem that a group re-raise is another death sentance.
#40 Jan 22 2004 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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2,872 posts
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we could have some tarutaru dancing around a little stone henge.

LMAO Boyo, that made my day! :D

Excellent post Ghostpilot. I plan on being a BRD myself (still only lvl 23 WHM though) Just one question though, what did you mean about having to change out equip to accomodate a WHM sub? Are you talking about MND gear? What equip do you suggest BRDs wear instead of something like Friar's Rope, Zealot's Mitts, Hairpins, etc. I know I won't get my MND bonus from wand anymore, but are there better things for BRD that I would have to wear instead? (I'm a Taru, so I think my CHR would already be higher than most).
____________________________
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#41 Jan 22 2004 at 11:10 AM Rating: Default
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Its kinda funny to me that anyone says "I'd take a bard over a redmage." when its not like a one or the other kinda deal. Anyone in their right mind will take BOTH if they are lucky enough to be able to get them both in their party.


Maybe in your semi crappy Pt's you can have both.

But here is how it usualy works outs.

For a good dmg pt you need:
1 main tank (PLD)
1 healer (WHM)
2 BLM
1 BRD
1 other damage melee (DRK/MNK)

This leaves no room for a rdm. you *could* replace a blm with a RDM, but this takes the pt's damage down severely. No double magic bursts. I've tried it before. the regen was nice but the creatures took way too long to die.
#42 Jan 22 2004 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
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This leaves no room for a rdm. you *could* replace a blm with a RDM, but this takes the pt's damage down severely. No double magic bursts. I've tried it before. the regen was nice but the creatures took way too long to die.


Eh?? Whaa? A RDM can't magic burst? Well that news to me :)

You must have had some pretty crappy RDM experiences. If you think that they can't do good dmg and can't magic burst, they must have been awful.

What would happen in this situation is the RDM would slip into a more aggresive role. The RDM *should* (in addition to casting refresh and regen) cast en-element, eat a mithkabob. When the mob comes, cast 3 debuffs and start casting nukes w/ melee dmg to boot.





Edited, Thu Jan 22 11:27:46 2004 by subvert
#43 Jan 22 2004 at 11:28 AM Rating: Default
Sure they can magic burst. But their elemental skill is nothing compared to BLM. I have a 50 rdm in addition to paladin. So yes. I know exactly what they can do. a RDM cannot do the damage of a BLM, sorry
#44 Jan 22 2004 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
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580 posts
Well bards are ok if you want your party to have more of a retro feel to it, but the new trend is to hire DJ's, even Karaoke is popular in some spots now. Honestly though I think I bard would make for great Entertainment if you were thinking on holding a toga party. Mind you .. you would require lots of drugs to make it more fun ( am joking I do not advocate the use of drugs ).
#45 Jan 22 2004 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
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1,576 posts
I'm curious then... why would a level 50 RDM say that a RDM can't magic burst?

Maybe you didn't have your elemental skills up very high. Mine's always capped. I don't do the same dmg but it's comparable (maybe 40 dmg instead of 50). Nothing to sneese at, especially considering that in between casts, I've hit twice w/ melee for another 20-30 dmg on a VT-IT mob.
#46 Jan 22 2004 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
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580 posts
Celinaredfern I am sure they were not talking about that type of party.......*sigh*

Personally I would have to say Bards are a great assest to any party, but don't replace a rdm with a brd. BRD and rdm make a good team.. 2 stack mp regen songs with refresh on top of that...debuffs from the rdm can not be beat..with gravity cast on the mob and atk% up on the melee's you virtualy never miss the mob.

Bards are great...but not as good as a rdm who knows what he is doing..just too bad those are few , very few and far between.
#47 Jan 22 2004 at 11:37 AM Rating: Default
I never said RDM cannot magic burst. I said no Double Magic Bursts, as in *good* ones. I mean hell, even WHM can magic burst, with banish.

Sure when a RDM can join in for a double Freeze burst, i'll bow down before the job.
#48 Jan 22 2004 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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758 posts
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Its kinda funny to me that anyone says "I'd take a bard over a redmage." when its not like a one or the other kinda deal. Anyone in their right mind will take BOTH if they are lucky enough to be able to get them both in their party.


It really depends on the party structure, and the difficulty of the mobs you're fighting.

Say you have:
pld
drk
brd
whm
blm

Fighting IT's I'd much rather have a thief or ranger than a rdm. With good mp control the bard can keep the mages mp high enough to chain 4-5 together. If you replace the thief with a rdm, sure you always have mp, but most likely the fights will be much longer. Your chains won't be limited by mp levels, but the time it takes to kill. I'm not bashing the role of a rdm in party, just saying that right now, if I had to chose between a good brd and a good rdm....I would probably go with the bard
#49 Jan 22 2004 at 11:42 AM Rating: Decent
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580 posts
btw I am 41 rdm and i have seen my MBS at 41 do more than the blm in my group..but before you join a group you need to know what job you are doing 1st. ( and btw MB's are dmg timed based , meaning there is a time spot when it does maximum dmg and either way before or after it reduces dmg :



- - - * - - -
Each line before/after the star are time slots where the MB can still happen but at roughly a % dmg down from what it would be if hit right on the star. and that whole ---*--- is roughly 2.5-3-3.5 seconds.
#50 Jan 22 2004 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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409 posts
RDM can't do the same damage, but they CAN burst. They can also debuff the mob, and that is VERY important for your damage dealers.

Besides I don't know what things are like on your server, but on Odin we have a hard time finding ONE BLM let alone two...
#51 Jan 22 2004 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
Many of you are talking about the BRD replaceing the RDM....how about a RDM replacing a WHM? I havent NEEDED to PT with once since my BRD hit 39 (when my RDM friend hit 41) ...RDMs convert gives them twice as much MP as a WHM and they heal just as well. RDM can take alot more dmg than most WHM and Regen + Refresh works wonders.

Which makes me ask the question...how many of you that are talking about replacing a RDM have actually played with a RDM over 41??? I was in a PT withh a PLD,NIN,RDM,RDM,RDM,BRD
and we took on IT++ goblins in East Altepa easily...even with double bomb drops doing 380+ dmg.

A PT with a BRD and RDM + 4 Random jobs will be sucessful without a WHM (unless they are idiots).



Edit: Spelling

Edited, Thu Jan 22 11:54:49 2004 by Xarddrax
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