Some tips for warsFollow

I have some good people i usually play with and im a whm, normally my warrior friends, pull mobs just within my spell range but still far from me. So that #1 They can easily see when a mob pulls off them and provoke #2 when they provoke they do it before it hits me at all, not even 1 hit, #3 avoid Area of Effect spells.
You say 1 hit, big deal, yes it is, that 1 hit is actually many hits, because if you dont keep them far enough their gonna 1 hit you again, be voked, 1 hit again etc. Its a total waste of my mp which is actually HP's you're losing. Instead what pullers mostly do is just grab a mob, and then run right in the MIDDLE of the mages. So Blm's and whm's have to run to a safe range, sometimes having to go somewhere where theirs agro close by which can cause problems all to itself.

Even at level 30 i swear that maybe 3 out of 20 wars know this. Also the same number just spam provoke so when its needed they dont have it. Just keep hitting provoke as soon as the timers done on it so that ive had no kidding, been killed in parties with 3-4 wars because none had a provoke for me, and was hit 3-4 times till i was dead.

This is mostly the War/nosub people that play like that but plenty more with even an advanced profession.

This is not meant to all War's theirs alot of good ones and you're likely not super terrible without doing the above, but you will be far better off and so will your pt.

Hopefully some of these tips, you will try and gain more xp. Also be more sought after as a warrior, which helps when groups gets scarce and whm remember the wars like that.

(I find that a lot of the other melees and occasionally the mages themselves draw the mob closer to the casters. I try my best to keep them away usually. There are times though, when the fighting space is so small that we're all kinda cramped together.)

Thats not what im talking about, im talking about the puller with a mob right on their tail, keeps running and only stops when he's standing next to the mages and starts fighting there. As far as the fighting space thing, isnt that a given?

I also know very well how to handle hate, its called management and you cannot keep the mob off you 100% of the time. if the wars start missing and than gets a critical on them and i heal them, its my job. Their job is to pull it off. Thats how it works.

Provoke is best saved, thats right saved, a healing spell is counted as an attack so it spikes the hate higher than anyone else, if you used your provoke 5 ticks ago, your hate has been dropping ever since then even if your hitting it because provoke has peaked and is on the decline. meanwhile the cure that just healed you spiked it to the whm, if you have no provoke they will keep chasing the mage unless you have some special attack or something that can spike your hate above the cure. Thats why you dont spam provoke because when you need it its not their. Every party ive ever been in where the wars did that i NEVER got hit, every party that didnt do that, i take 1-2 hits and sometimes die.

I'm talking about the most basic tips that people should know as soon as they first party, not 20levels later and still as clueless.


Edited, Wed Jan 21 04:42:50 2004 by whmtaru

This is funny. You're telling a warrior how to do his job without realizing that you have a very slim understanding of how to tank.

As a previous poster said: saved provoke = wasted provoke. Aggro is not an instantanious thing, it builds up during the fight. So, every 30 seconds the tank MUST provoke, if he wants to keep aggro on him. This is THE biggest misunderstanding that I have seen about the tank's job: Save the Provoke.

Please do not tell warriors how to tank, if you don't know how. Using Cure Is will kill the tank as well. I can't imagine a mage giving me cure I after I have been hit with sickle slash for 550. I want a Cure IV or at least Divine Seal Cure III and the mob will be still on me, because I didn't save the provoke, but build up enough aggro during the fight.

Now, the distance thing, I agree. However it really depends on where you're fighting.

Rushian, lvl56 Paladin,
Bismarck

Edited, Wed Jan 21 10:14:15 2004 by Russian

OK, here's my attempt at clearing up this giant mess of misinformation.

If you are not the main tank in the PT sure save your vokes til somebody needs it. (Assuming u have a good enough tank to stay main tank the entire battle)

But if you are the main tank, a saved voke is a wasted voke.
If you don't have a decent enough tank to main tank then yes, rotate vokes and spread the damage out between the tanks.

In conclusion, the only occasion you *should* save vokes is if you are not the main tank, and your pt has a paladin or high defense warrior (with enough pt healing to keep up). If you voked in these pt's the main tank and main healer would likely ***** you out for making the mob ping pong.

point made :)

Yup, hate is cumulative. Ever stop to see a non-tank attempt to do a Provoke off the main tank (after a long fight) and lo and behold, the mob doesn't flinch?

That's because the 2nd provoker is much less on the hate list than the main tank.

So please, do yourself a favor and stop commenting on other jobs until you either: 1.) fully know what you are talking about or 2.) played the job yourself and understand it.

I don't bother to comment on other jobs, because I don't know anything about them.

Edited, Wed Jan 21 13:55:25 2004 by Asherek

I did alot of high level raids in EQ, and some of the strats from that game can be applied to low level parties, even in FFXI.

1. Share the Healing, if you have any backup healer like a rdm or whm sub, they should throw out the occasional heal, this helps the whm's since they don't have to do a heal and get more hate. In EQ on raids with super-mobs you would have a main tank maybe doing 50 dps, while a dragon was doing 250dps, so how does the cleric manage to heal without getting eaten, easy, there is about 10 clerics that need to do 25 healing per second (hps), as you can see, that is half as much hate, add tuant and patch heals in and aggro control should be easy. This can be the same as with one tank and two whm, tanks does say 50dps, mob does 75dps, two whm's only need to do 38hps.

2. Build Aggro, high damage should not come at the front end of a battle, in EQ on a dragon the tank would solo (with heals) for as much as 30 seconds. Same should apply in FFXI, the tank should get in a few hits and a provoke before melees and debuffers attack. Not until the mob is down 75%, even 50% should nukes even come in, in EQ you might not nuke until as low as 10%!).

3. Position, this is extremely important, learn positioning, keep the tank-types to the outside and the mage/damage dealers to the inside, if anything adds, it does so to a tank. From level 1-30, All tanks that may gain aggro should be on one side, this way they can see the mob has aggro'd on someone it shouldn't when it turns. If the mob moves, make sure you don't just follow it, set up position again! Keeping tanks on one side also helps thieves sneak attack since the mob won't be moving back and forth, this is combat, not a tea dance. From level 30+, if you have a thief you will want to utilize Trick Attack, and you will need tanks on either side, you local thief can easily explain this to you as such:
Thief-->Tank A-->Mob--><--Tank B
When they do their trick attack with sneak and viper bite they will rip as much as 25-50% of the mob out of its *** and make the mob think the warrior they are hiding behind did it providing that warrior with serious aggro, if this is done near the begining of a fight Tank A can easily keep aggro for whatever is left. The important thing is that the thief MUST strike the enemies back for it to work properly, so position is absolutely key, anyone that doesn't understand this doesn't deserve the advantages of having a thief in party.

4. Crowd Control, sometimes you get additional mobs (adds), if you have two tanks, one tank should take a mob and solo tank it instead of having the main warrior have to provoke two mobs, if a mage can sleep the mob that is even better.

5. Apply Debuffs, each debuff is important, it may seem a small thing if you slow the enemy by 10%, but that is 10% less damage the healer gains aggro from when healing, and if you haste your party by 10% that is 10% more hate the main tank generates, that is a 20% difference right there, and that is major. In EQ if you didn't slow somethings, it pretty much wasn't killable, but you could slow it 60% and haste your warriors by 50% plus.

6. Know your Stomping Grounds, do research, take a few minutes to learn what aggros, what links, and what doesn't, what mobs have high defenses, low damage, elemental weaknesses, good loot. Buy all the maps you can, learn unmapped areas and details not shown on maps, learn how to use <pos> and compass direction.

7. Follow Directions, your leader is the leader for a reason, the leader gives the orders, and you follow them, even if you don't like them. When he moves (unless he is the puller or tells you to stay at camp), you move with him, don't use auto-follow, don't dilly-dally and smell the flowers, stay close to him, if you lose him immediately say, "Wait, lost ya, come back." Don't move unless you will aggro something, the worst thing you can do it go up the wrong canyon and get eaten by the Superbeast. If you leader tells you to "RUN!!1!1!!", you hual ***, don't try to save someone, they are dying so you don't and is likely about to run as well. The whm or warrior shouldn't call run, only the leader, they should be informing the leader if their is a problem, like "Out of Mana, Cannot Heal!", then the leader makes the call and the tank takes the death for the team, that is a tanks job, and they should be used to it. In EQ there were monsters that could instantly-kill (no chance to heal or resist, just death!) a person every 30 or so seconds, and you always have one person aggro it and take the first death, it was an honor, not a burden.

8. Respect Each Other, drama happens, but hopefully not often, I seen it all the time, people just can't accept they are wrong sometimes, if someone tries to tell you how to do your job, they are only trying to help, if you think they are wrong, explain why you do what you do, and ask them why they think it is wrong. They should explain, and somewhere along the line of logic someone will realize they are wrong, you should be willing to admit you are wrong, and learn what is right, this is a 200% increse in player skill right there. I truly respect the player that dies and says, "Sorry guys, I didn't do suchandsuch and got killed, I won't do it again." I would much rather have that then, "WTF, why didn't you heal and voke stupid party! ***** you guys!'/disband"

These are just a few things I have learned that are basic rules for combat, if you don't understand and follow at least these you are effectively a 'bad player' no matter how many levels you have or what uber gear you got, strategy is 99% of the game.

I had to explain 30+ positioning for 2 reasons:
1. Some people don't know it, and EVERYONE should, be it mage, tank, thief, whatever. Knowing what other classes are doing gives you insight into what you should do to aid or avoid hindering the other members.

2. If I just said position tanks on one side, thieves on the other, someone would say, "Not with TA, blah, blah, you are wrong!"

I always welcome constructive input, it is the only way I learn, and I know for a fact that knowledge is the only difference between horrible players and exceptional players.