I didn't want to hijack the RDM roles thread so I started this,
and it may have been beaten to death already, but their is no
apparent "search" function.
And please, I dont want to turn this thread into a flame war, I'm just looking for some constructive feedback.
While it is always better to have at least one WHM in a group,
from my perspective, a RDM holds their own and I would rather have a RDM for secondary healing than another WHM, and it may not be a hopeless situation if you just have a RDM as the primary healer.
Also note I'm low level (20)RDM, so this may change in the endgame, and hence my biased view.
This may seem "obvious" but a lot of people seem confused ingame and disband from a party if their is no WHM.
Here's my view:
WHM
pro: benediction, divine seal, curaga, attribute remover such as poisona, protectra, shellra, etc
con: relativly slow cast time, cant do much more than cure, enfeeble a little, and rest w perhaps a couple direct damage spells
RDM
pro: "fast cast", nearly the same cure spells as WHM at nearly the same level, can nuke and enfeeble if the party
needs it
con: see WHM pro
The mp issue is really mute, and really depends on race.
For instance, a 19RDM taru with no sub has more mp
than an 19whm/blm elvaan. Note that this is not based
on statistical evidence, just what I have seen in the game.
Of course, a taru whm will have much more mp than a taru
rdm, but I dont see too many taru whm on my server.
And of course divine seal + curaga and benediction = heaven,
but sometime it is better to cast faster overall to prevent someone dying, if benediciton has already been used.
The point of this thread, contrary to the title, is not to say RDM are better or worse than WHM, but to gather ideas and demonstrate that RDM can be a primary / secondary healer if the need arises.
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Nothing pisses a RDM off more than being invited to a group and then being told to "stay back and save all your MP for healing" I feel that a RDM in such a situation should simply disband, the group won't be happy with him and he won't be happy with the group.
RDM's job is not to be a second choice when you can't find a WHM, his job is to debuff the crap out of the mob and turn an (a RDM with all his skills to cap can turn an IT into a T), and to get up on the front line and hack away with a weapon enspelled with an element that the mob is weak against.
RDM's job is not to be a second choice when you can't find a WHM, his job is to debuff the crap out of the mob and turn an (a RDM with all his skills to cap can turn an IT into a T), and to get up on the front line and hack away with a weapon enspelled with an element that the mob is weak against.
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I thought of it first:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
Actually, up to 20th level (as much as my personal experience covers), in every group I've been in, I've been a BACKUP healer. I agree with you when you say we aren't designed to be primary healers, Lobivopis. (although, 2 RDM can make a workable job out of PT healing).
I throw my debuffs, engage somewhere in between there, wack along the way, and keep my mana pretty even with the WHM, to minimize downtime. Having the WHM stop to rest when I still have MP is not only inefficient, it is retarded. So I disagree with your second comment, Lobivopis, as you didn't mention as one of the things RDM are supposed to be doing.
And if the choice is to sit LFG or sit in a party without a WHM, even if things are slow I would rather do the second. Some people wouldn't I guess.
I throw my debuffs, engage somewhere in between there, wack along the way, and keep my mana pretty even with the WHM, to minimize downtime. Having the WHM stop to rest when I still have MP is not only inefficient, it is retarded. So I disagree with your second comment, Lobivopis, as you didn't mention as one of the things RDM are supposed to be doing.
And if the choice is to sit LFG or sit in a party without a WHM, even if things are slow I would rather do the second. Some people wouldn't I guess.
Well, Being lvl 30 RDM I can say the following...
1stly I'm not too familiar with how a WHM Character plays, but what I do know is I Prefer 1 or 2 Red mages Healing... Because even if they get Aggro'd, they have a higher defense and more HP than White Mage... So they tend to last much longer if being attacked.
And yes 2ndly, they can also Debuff and nuke. What I usually do is debuff as soon as possible... run in to help with the melee a bit.. and if the mage runs out of mp... I fill in for while he regains his mana. Seemed to work so far :P
1stly I'm not too familiar with how a WHM Character plays, but what I do know is I Prefer 1 or 2 Red mages Healing... Because even if they get Aggro'd, they have a higher defense and more HP than White Mage... So they tend to last much longer if being attacked.
And yes 2ndly, they can also Debuff and nuke. What I usually do is debuff as soon as possible... run in to help with the melee a bit.. and if the mage runs out of mp... I fill in for while he regains his mana. Seemed to work so far :P
Scholar
24 posts
Once I started getting near 30 with my RDM I simply didn't have enough MP to be an effective main healer. I've been in groups before 20 where I could be the main healer and it wouldn't be too bad but later groups could only take one or two mobs before I'd have to sit and rest which stopped chains. The RDM should primarily be used for enfeebling and healing/nuking/melee second depending on the situation. They can also act as main healer when the WHM is resting to keep things moving along if mana is used properly. In the end I think it's best to have both in a group.
42 posts
The Redmage is a very different class after level 41 so what your discussing is only for the early levels of the Redmage.
After that point you'd have to be in a group of total noobs to want a second whitemage over adding a redmage.
The levels from 1-41 are really a small part of your charaters climb to 75 because of the huge xp needed to level up after 50.
Eryx level 55 Redmage / 25 Blackmage
After that point you'd have to be in a group of total noobs to want a second whitemage over adding a redmage.
The levels from 1-41 are really a small part of your charaters climb to 75 because of the huge xp needed to level up after 50.
Eryx level 55 Redmage / 25 Blackmage
Eryx, can you clarify on the roles,
strengths and weaknesses of the RDM, post 41?
I'm sure other low level RDMs are dying to know.
I know they get refresh at 41, and their melee aspect
is supposed to go down, but how does their healing
and nuking compare to a WHM and BLM?
I know the role of RDM is primarily enfeebling, but
from what I have come across I am used mainly as a
substitute if a group does not have a WHM or BLM.
Thanks.
strengths and weaknesses of the RDM, post 41?
I'm sure other low level RDMs are dying to know.
I know they get refresh at 41, and their melee aspect
is supposed to go down, but how does their healing
and nuking compare to a WHM and BLM?
I know the role of RDM is primarily enfeebling, but
from what I have come across I am used mainly as a
substitute if a group does not have a WHM or BLM.
Thanks.
17 posts
Well, I have been playing as a rdm till lvl 20 now. All I know is that it's better than a whm. I'm not saying that the role is better but playing a rdm is a lot more fun. You can do basic healing, enfeeble, and fight. Sometimes, there you have to sit and heal for your team, but that only goes with the territory. If your team complains that you are doing a crap job healing, remind them you are a rdm. It doesn't even matter about stats and stuff. Final word, you want to be powerful and most wanted, whm sub blm. If you want to have fun, be a rdm. I'm a rdm/whm cuz I want to help heal more. Do wat you want.
9 posts
What I think the previous poster is referring to is the Refresh/Convert/Cure X combo. Run out of mana Convert your HP to MP Cure if necessary and Refresh to regain mana over time. This also is usefull with the Chain Spell 2HR pop off a couple Cures look it's a mini Benediction. That's my 2Gil on the issue.
Kitiraa
Mitra
24 RDM/15WHM/15Thief
Kitiraa
Mitra
24 RDM/15WHM/15Thief
Another low level (23) RDM here so my view may be biased as well but here's my cents++
I'd rather have 2 RDMs than 1 WHM any day. Especially if one of them is sub'd WHM (for poisona, protectra, curega, etc). With fast cast, they can debuff as well as nuke and heal effectivly while doing melee dmg at the same time (w/ enXXXX spells). Some of the best parties I've been in had no WHM. It's like your not wasting a slot by a job that can really only do one thing.
Please don't get me wrong. I love having a WHM in the group so I don't have to heal as much and can concentrate on debuffing/nuking as well but I still stick by my original statement. If you're in a situation where you could only have 1 RDM or 1 WHM, I'd chose a WHM any day because RDM can heal effectivly at these lower levels but the downtime will be much slower.
I don't think fast cast's benefits were very evident until I started to lvl my subjob. My heals took sooooo long before I could cast again. It was very frustrating to say the least.
I can envision my role chainging a lot at later levels though.
I'd rather have 2 RDMs than 1 WHM any day. Especially if one of them is sub'd WHM (for poisona, protectra, curega, etc). With fast cast, they can debuff as well as nuke and heal effectivly while doing melee dmg at the same time (w/ enXXXX spells). Some of the best parties I've been in had no WHM. It's like your not wasting a slot by a job that can really only do one thing.
Please don't get me wrong. I love having a WHM in the group so I don't have to heal as much and can concentrate on debuffing/nuking as well but I still stick by my original statement. If you're in a situation where you could only have 1 RDM or 1 WHM, I'd chose a WHM any day because RDM can heal effectivly at these lower levels but the downtime will be much slower.
I don't think fast cast's benefits were very evident until I started to lvl my subjob. My heals took sooooo long before I could cast again. It was very frustrating to say the least.
I can envision my role chainging a lot at later levels though.
Have your WHMs haste themselves. This will increase their cast speeds to almost that of a RDM. At higher levels, you should be keeps a back up healer anyway. RDMs are better then a BLM for healing. Plus Refresh. I can't count how many times I've just managed to get that Cure III off because of Refresh.
Post 41, the RDM is responsible for debuffing the mob, and then making sure Refresh is up on all the mages, Regen is up on all the Melees (until WHM's start running Regen II / III), recasting debuffs if they're resisted or run out, and somewhere in there backup healing and getting in on Magic Bursts.
But post-41, first and foremost we are Refresh *****. :)
But post-41, first and foremost we are Refresh *****. :)
Quote:
But post-41, first and foremost we are Refresh *****. :)
It's kind of sad that a class with so much great stuff is reduced to one thing (as I've found out firsthand).
46 posts
i just have one thing to say that owns... lvl 41 rdm. refresh>> whm...
lvl 41 rdm with stoneskin and phalanx > whm
with stone skin and phalanx, rdms get higher defense than plds do. i'm not a mage myself, but watching high lvl rdms in action, just blows away whms
lvl 41 rdm with stoneskin and phalanx > whm
with stone skin and phalanx, rdms get higher defense than plds do. i'm not a mage myself, but watching high lvl rdms in action, just blows away whms
WHM gets stoneskin too. Though not Phalanx. We will one day though... When we all sub RDM for refresh and convert. :-p
Red mage meleeing will mostly stop after Qufim. So I am talking about mid 20s since most of the people will head to kazham around that level. Rdm as a prime healer alone won't keep up with group. Thats why we need another class to support us. Doesn't necesary needs to be a whm (since they are very few around this level). Blm/whm can perfectly capable of being a sub healer.
Post 25 you got how many debuffs to do? Gravity, Blind, Paralise, dia/bio, slow. That makes 5 debuffs. Dividing the debuff between mages is mute around here. We are bettert debuffers, and while the whm and blm may get their debuff resisted, we have a higher chance. Just ask the blm to land Shock or Burn beforehand. After debuffing I usually check the party's hp. I start of throwing the main tank regen so by the time the mob is hitting him/her, he should have at least some hp recovering. After this I sit to recover some mp, while Blm nukes ocationaly watching his agro, and the front line melee doing his stuff. Usually go with cure => cureII combo taking turns with blm (or any other healer) and be prepared to land big heals when mob lands a TP attack (rarely against madongoras but against Goblin Smiths you have to be carefull).
Blm does good with healing. Soon after the group gets hit by nasty aoe attacks, the blm stops nuking and start throwing CureIIs, and same goes to me. To avoid this kind of situation, the main tank usually runs far from the group so that the goblin can hit with his AoE attack to him only, thus decreasing the amount of heals we healers need to do.
Other reason why I don't melee is because as you go to higher levels the debuffs wears off quickly (specially Paralise, and blind) so I need to recast to ease the battle. Hence by doing these: Debuff + Observe the debuff wearing off, Main/Backup heals, Join MBing, watch my mp... I really DON'T have time to even draw my sword/wand. Not to mention at lvl 25 you get sleep. This means eighther me or the blm is in charge of crowd control. We rdm won't even get Clear mind till lvl 31 so our mp recovery is even slower than whm (gets at 25) and blm (gets at 20 along with conserve MP).
Oh and post 40+ will not get any easier. We have to hand in Refreshs to all casters and some melee (specially paladin) aswell as the things I mentioned above, plus the debuffs will get to lvl II which means more mp cost although you have convert at this stage but its 10minuit reuse. Group won't be pulling every 10min don't they? Also at lvl 32, you get dispell. This means you have to observe mob's TP attacks. Since the mob's hp will get higher and higher, they can get more hits, meaning they will use more TP attacks. Cocoon for example from Crawlers in the Crawler's nest is one of the mob's Buff that we can strip off. My 2cents.
Post 25 you got how many debuffs to do? Gravity, Blind, Paralise, dia/bio, slow. That makes 5 debuffs. Dividing the debuff between mages is mute around here. We are bettert debuffers, and while the whm and blm may get their debuff resisted, we have a higher chance. Just ask the blm to land Shock or Burn beforehand. After debuffing I usually check the party's hp. I start of throwing the main tank regen so by the time the mob is hitting him/her, he should have at least some hp recovering. After this I sit to recover some mp, while Blm nukes ocationaly watching his agro, and the front line melee doing his stuff. Usually go with cure => cureII combo taking turns with blm (or any other healer) and be prepared to land big heals when mob lands a TP attack (rarely against madongoras but against Goblin Smiths you have to be carefull).
Blm does good with healing. Soon after the group gets hit by nasty aoe attacks, the blm stops nuking and start throwing CureIIs, and same goes to me. To avoid this kind of situation, the main tank usually runs far from the group so that the goblin can hit with his AoE attack to him only, thus decreasing the amount of heals we healers need to do.
Other reason why I don't melee is because as you go to higher levels the debuffs wears off quickly (specially Paralise, and blind) so I need to recast to ease the battle. Hence by doing these: Debuff + Observe the debuff wearing off, Main/Backup heals, Join MBing, watch my mp... I really DON'T have time to even draw my sword/wand. Not to mention at lvl 25 you get sleep. This means eighther me or the blm is in charge of crowd control. We rdm won't even get Clear mind till lvl 31 so our mp recovery is even slower than whm (gets at 25) and blm (gets at 20 along with conserve MP).
Oh and post 40+ will not get any easier. We have to hand in Refreshs to all casters and some melee (specially paladin) aswell as the things I mentioned above, plus the debuffs will get to lvl II which means more mp cost although you have convert at this stage but its 10minuit reuse. Group won't be pulling every 10min don't they? Also at lvl 32, you get dispell. This means you have to observe mob's TP attacks. Since the mob's hp will get higher and higher, they can get more hits, meaning they will use more TP attacks. Cocoon for example from Crawlers in the Crawler's nest is one of the mob's Buff that we can strip off. My 2cents.
all I can say Shiia is that I am almost as Drunk/tired as you, and I THINK i understand what you said... please re-post in like - english sometime, cause there WAS good info there if somewhat confusing...
I will take what i can get :P White mage, Red mage what ever.
When it comes to healers im none to picky.
When it comes to healers im none to picky.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
I leveled my redmage up to 30, and 1 thing I noticed once I got my En-elemetanal spell line. Was that I did just as much if not more damage than everyone else in my team with just melee.
2 Whm is excessive, no doubt about that. 1 Whm and 1 Rdm is alot better, but even better than that is 1 whm, 1 paladin, 1 rdm.
Towards 30 I was just straight up embarassing a theif in my party. She was doing 6-10 damage a hit to the Mandrags in Yuhtunga Jungle. While I was doing 16-28 normal damage PLUS the 7 extra damage from enblizzard every hit. (Makin me do about 23-35 damage a hit) And I was hitting almost as fast as her. (sword vs dagger)
While I could also cure 2, and top off skill chains with magic burst, all the theif could do was give us Treasure hunter, and do jack-shiznit damage.
Redmages do great damage and can heal, they get aggro? Big whoop, they can take damage alot better than any whitemage or blackmage.
Any team that tries to make the redmage the primary healer is retarded, but that doesn't mean redmages should be in skill chains. I hit well, don't get me wrong, I hit hard also, but I know my cure 2s will be needed alot more than 1 weapon skill in a skill chian. (Not to mention if you keep your elemental skills up to date, you can basically do as much damage with your highest elemental spell than you can with your weapon skill.)
1 Exception was my Burning Blade was doing about 90 damage each time vs the mandrags. But I stayed out of the skillchain and just used that seperately and I'd save up flat blade for when the gobs tried to bomb toss.
[Added]
As far as enfeebling goes, I barely ever used enfeebles. Hard mobs resist em, and easy mobs die to fast for the enfeeble to make any noticable difference. I only used dia from time to time to lower hard mobs def a little. Maybe If I had them macro'd I'd use em more, but I already got enough macros as is lol.
BTW No team I was in even cared that I wasn't enfeebling, they appreciated my cure 2s and damage.
Also I tried leveling up a whm with another of my characters, I found that soo much more harder than leveling a redmage. Redmages are definitly alot easier to level in my opinion. At least early on.
Edited, Tue Jan 20 04:16:23 2004 by Nokturnal
2 Whm is excessive, no doubt about that. 1 Whm and 1 Rdm is alot better, but even better than that is 1 whm, 1 paladin, 1 rdm.
Towards 30 I was just straight up embarassing a theif in my party. She was doing 6-10 damage a hit to the Mandrags in Yuhtunga Jungle. While I was doing 16-28 normal damage PLUS the 7 extra damage from enblizzard every hit. (Makin me do about 23-35 damage a hit) And I was hitting almost as fast as her. (sword vs dagger)
While I could also cure 2, and top off skill chains with magic burst, all the theif could do was give us Treasure hunter, and do jack-shiznit damage.
Redmages do great damage and can heal, they get aggro? Big whoop, they can take damage alot better than any whitemage or blackmage.
Any team that tries to make the redmage the primary healer is retarded, but that doesn't mean redmages should be in skill chains. I hit well, don't get me wrong, I hit hard also, but I know my cure 2s will be needed alot more than 1 weapon skill in a skill chian. (Not to mention if you keep your elemental skills up to date, you can basically do as much damage with your highest elemental spell than you can with your weapon skill.)
1 Exception was my Burning Blade was doing about 90 damage each time vs the mandrags. But I stayed out of the skillchain and just used that seperately and I'd save up flat blade for when the gobs tried to bomb toss.
[Added]
As far as enfeebling goes, I barely ever used enfeebles. Hard mobs resist em, and easy mobs die to fast for the enfeeble to make any noticable difference. I only used dia from time to time to lower hard mobs def a little. Maybe If I had them macro'd I'd use em more, but I already got enough macros as is lol.
BTW No team I was in even cared that I wasn't enfeebling, they appreciated my cure 2s and damage.
Also I tried leveling up a whm with another of my characters, I found that soo much more harder than leveling a redmage. Redmages are definitly alot easier to level in my opinion. At least early on.
Edited, Tue Jan 20 04:16:23 2004 by Nokturnal
Nokturnal
are you one of those gulkans or somethin? I am a mithra and don't find this to be true for me
are you one of those gulkans or somethin? I am a mithra and don't find this to be true for me
Quote:
Towards 30 I was just straight up embarassing a theif in my party. She was doing 6-10 damage a hit to the Mandrags in Yuhtunga Jungle. While I was doing 16-28 normal damage PLUS the 7 extra damage from enblizzard every hit. (Makin me do about 23-35 damage a hit) And I was hitting almost as fast as her. (sword vs dagger)
While I could also cure 2, and top off skill chains with magic burst, all the theif could do was give us Treasure hunter, and do jack-shiznit damage.
While I could also cure 2, and top off skill chains with magic burst, all the theif could do was give us Treasure hunter, and do jack-shiznit damage.
What are you talking about?! With a Thief's TA+SA, they should be doing close to 150-250 dmg.... EVERY MINUTE (not to mention TA+SA+WS, that puts them well over 300). Of course their regular melee dmg sucks (especially if they are using dagger), but that's not why you want a THF in your party.
Please don't under estimate the THF. They have enough hard times getting a party as it is because people don't understand their job. THF makes an excellent puller (Flee), a great money maker (Treasure Hunter), "Hate Management" (TA+SA), and good dmg (TA+SA).
(No, I'm not a THF but I've played one to level 18)
Edited, Tue Jan 20 10:19:25 2004 by subvert
a 30s rdm who doesn't have a few enfeeble spells macroed would be like the warr who doesn't have his WS macroed. the group can get by with that person doing things manually, but *some* effectiveness is lost.
nokturnal if hard mobs resist your enfeebles, chances are your enfeeble skill is not up to par...and it probably isn't b/c you're not doing it.
while as group leader, in a balanced group i would not relegate a RDM to focus on healing, i would definitely relegate him to main debuffer...b/c those are the spells that he has, that's what he brings to the group.
Okan wrote:
WHM gets stoneskin too. Though not Phalanx. We will one day though... When we all sub RDM for refresh and convert. :-p
That would be nice but it'd never happen :)
Refresh: lvl 41
Convert: lvl 41
Aye, don't hate on the THFs. They do wonders at mid-low to mid-high levels. TA-SA-Gust Slash = high damage *and* aggro right where you want it.
As for RDM's at high levels, you are Refresh ***** *first*, but not *only*. You're also the best contingency class in the game, from what I understand - which makes sense. If things go wrong, the Bard and BLM can mass-sleep, but if that gets resisted they're both toast. The RDM can at least tank 2 or 3 hits from an add, get another chance to Sleep, or even keep it busy long enough for the rest of the party to finish off pull #1 and either haul it off you or haul caboose. RDM's are and always will be the widest safety net in the game, I think.
Far worse than that, my friend. It's like a tank without Voke, TP calls, or WS's macro'd. A WHM without Cure macro'd. Even at higher levels, around Refreshing everything that isn't ugly, it's your responsibility as a RDM to keep the mob debuffed to Hell. Dia, Paralyze, Slow, Blind, Gravity, possibly Silence, and don't forget Dispel!
Edited, Tue Jan 20 10:28:41 2004 by Sprits
As for RDM's at high levels, you are Refresh ***** *first*, but not *only*. You're also the best contingency class in the game, from what I understand - which makes sense. If things go wrong, the Bard and BLM can mass-sleep, but if that gets resisted they're both toast. The RDM can at least tank 2 or 3 hits from an add, get another chance to Sleep, or even keep it busy long enough for the rest of the party to finish off pull #1 and either haul it off you or haul caboose. RDM's are and always will be the widest safety net in the game, I think.
Quote:
a 30s rdm who doesn't have a few enfeeble spells macroed would be like the warr who doesn't have his WS macroed.
Far worse than that, my friend. It's like a tank without Voke, TP calls, or WS's macro'd. A WHM without Cure macro'd. Even at higher levels, around Refreshing everything that isn't ugly, it's your responsibility as a RDM to keep the mob debuffed to Hell. Dia, Paralyze, Slow, Blind, Gravity, possibly Silence, and don't forget Dispel!
Edited, Tue Jan 20 10:28:41 2004 by Sprits
Quote:
Far worse than that, my friend. It's like a tank without Voke, TP calls, or WS's macro'd. A WHM without Cure macro'd. Even at higher levels, around Refreshing everything that isn't ugly, it's your responsibility as a RDM to keep the mob debuffed to Hell. Dia, Paralyze, Slow, Blind, Gravity, possibly Silence, and don't forget Dispel!
I would agree. From what I understand, Dispell is one of the most important spells a RDM can use at later levels. The buffs that mobs (esp. clips, pugs) put on themselves at the end of a fight can sometimes drag a fight out 30-60 more seconds. Removing that buff saves a lot of MP/HP and time.
If your enfeeblment is low, you'll never pull this off.
9 posts
a Rdm role past 41 is to Refresh, Debuff, and Magic Burst
I personally still Melee when I have all these up and running I can MB when i need to Refresh when i need to and Debuff when I need to while meleeing so why not? with refresh on myself during battle and all other Magic users everything is going good, I can add my melee attacks with enchants on the mob til the end of battle then sit, while the puller pulls another usually gives me 20-30 seconds to sit and heal
then recast all refreshs and repeat simple
being a taru RDM with Astral rings helps though at level 52 I have 619MP and 617 HP
I personally still Melee when I have all these up and running I can MB when i need to Refresh when i need to and Debuff when I need to while meleeing so why not? with refresh on myself during battle and all other Magic users everything is going good, I can add my melee attacks with enchants on the mob til the end of battle then sit, while the puller pulls another usually gives me 20-30 seconds to sit and heal
then recast all refreshs and repeat simple
being a taru RDM with Astral rings helps though at level 52 I have 619MP and 617 HP
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