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Great game, BAD user interface!Follow

#1 Jan 14 2004 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
38 posts
Ok, I'm hooked. Love the game and have a blast playing but is there ANY hope in the future for a UI that isn't this nightmare?

Please, I need a REAL mouse movement (mouse look+mouse move forward) with a locked camera angle (*** cam). I hate using keys to move around, it is so inaccurate and slow. With a decent mouse movement system you can spin around quickly, with keys it takes me forever to turn around to look behind myself. The current "mouse movement" makes you move around like someone with half a leg on one side and you can't target while you are using it... and without the locked camera mode you can't really turn around and move somewhere and SEE where you are going.

Let us configure keys to specific things, like rest, call for help, target nearest pc, npc/etc. Right now you can't reconfigure the keys at all. I tried the compact keymode that makes you THINK you can reconfigure some of them but it doesn't work, or didn't for me.

Another thing that would be nice is allow us to move the windows around and resize. Being a whm I'd love to be able to actually SEE the group window. at 1600x1200 in the bottom right corner is tiny.

Has there been any talk from them about "updating" or improving the UI for PC players? It's kinda hard to find information on this game from the dev side, not like EQ where you can go read the forums they have.

Game would be 10 times better with a UI improvement for me.
#2 Jan 14 2004 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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57 posts
Play with a PS2 gamepad. Makes the game 100% more enjoyable.

You can pick up a PS2 -> USB adapter for ~$10 on eBay, or a radioshack.com
#3 Jan 14 2004 at 2:30 PM Rating: Decent
38 posts
I've got a friend that tried that and he wasn't happy with it. What is the difference between the ps2 controller and a gamepad made for the pc? I might try that but I'd much rather they just update the UI a bit to =)
#4 Jan 14 2004 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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96 posts
I never even touch my mouse while playing. I use the full keyboard mode.

Rest your middle finger on the 8 numpad key, your pointer finger on the 7, you can quickly turn auto run on. My hands are big so I can reach the arrow keys and rotate the camera in one direction with my thumb.

Targeting? F8 targets the nearest mob.

Target nearest NPC? Hit enter (if you're standing right next to them, otherwise it will target the nearest thing, whether it be a PC, NPC, or other object).

Switch through targets? Hit 0 on the number pad or use your left hand to hit tab.

You can use macros to hot key certain things if you absolutely have to, but resting? hit the * key on your numpad. I think control + g or control + h is a hot key for calling for help.

You don't need a mouse for this game, and I enjoy the keyboard too much to bother with a game pad.

Edited, Wed Jan 14 14:36:07 2004 by SpectralDragoon
#5 Jan 14 2004 at 2:42 PM Rating: Default
Thief's Knife
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Quote:
I never even touch my mouse while playing. I use the full keyboard mode.

Rest your middle finger on the 8 numpad key, your pointer finger on the 7, you can quickly turn auto run on. My hands are big so I can reach the arrow keys and rotate the camera in one direction with my thumb.

Targeting? F8 targets the nearest mob.

Target nearest NPC? Hit enter (if you're standing right next to them, otherwise it will target the nearest thing, whether it be a PC, NPC, or other object).

Switch through targets? Hit 0 on the number pad or use your left hand to hit tab.

You can use macros to hot key certain things if you absolutely have to, but resting? hit the * key on your numpad. I think control + g or control + h is a hot key for calling for help.

You don't need a mouse for this game, and I enjoy the keyboard too much to bother with a game pad.


Tanks that play with the keyboard are the bane of THF, I have yet to party with a keyboard player than could properly position himself alongside the other tanks and keep the mob facing away from me.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#6 Jan 14 2004 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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171 posts
You've hit the nail on the head here, the user interface is an unfortunate blemish on an otherwise lovely picture. It's regrettable, however as SpectralDragoon implies you can adjust to it with some effort, and it eventually becomes bearable. Not good, mind you, but bearable.
#7 Jan 14 2004 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
38 posts
I am already "familiar" with the current system, yes I know F8 is target nearest npc, but thats not nearly as close to where my hand rests as say Q or something else. And yes, I can use the keyboard to move, no choice... but it would be much more accurate with a mouse+locked camera angle =)

Yes, I know you can use the existing keys and such but it would be so much more comfortable play if I could reconfigure the keys and use a mouse as you can with say EQ, AO or the like.
#8 Jan 14 2004 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
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Quote:
Ok, I'm hooked. Love the game and have a blast playing but is there ANY hope in the future for a UI that isn't this nightmare?

Please, I need a REAL mouse movement (mouse look+mouse move forward) with a locked camera angle (*** cam). I hate using keys to move around, it is so inaccurate and slow. With a decent mouse movement system you can spin around quickly, with keys it takes me forever to turn around to look behind myself. The current "mouse movement" makes you move around like someone with half a leg on one side and you can't target while you are using it... and without the locked camera mode you can't really turn around and move somewhere and SEE where you are going.

Let us configure keys to specific things, like rest, call for help, target nearest pc, npc/etc. Right now you can't reconfigure the keys at all. I tried the compact keymode that makes you THINK you can reconfigure some of them but it doesn't work, or didn't for me.

Another thing that would be nice is allow us to move the windows around and resize. Being a whm I'd love to be able to actually SEE the group window. at 1600x1200 in the bottom right corner is tiny.

Has there been any talk from them about "updating" or improving the UI for PC players? It's kinda hard to find information on this game from the dev side, not like EQ where you can go read the forums they have.

Game would be 10 times better with a UI improvement for me.


No, and it's almost certain to not happen because they want to maintain a common cross platform interface.

That said, I have no problems with it. When played with a controller it's efficent, problems only begin when you try to use a mouse/keyboard. Personally I like being able to lean back in my chair and play without touching the mouse or keyboard (well, I still use the keyboard for some commands, but not many) The control when using a gamepad works perfectly, you move with one stick while manubering the camera with the other. After a few days you'll get so good with it that you'll be able to run in one direction while panning the camera around you without having to use autorun. If you've ever wondered how people cross a crowded room and know where every VT and IT mob in it is looking is as they manuver though, this is how it's done. The dpad scrolls through the menus, and you quickly learn to be able to swap your right thumb to the movement stick while your left thumb scrolls through menus.

Of course, I'm someone who likes Lightwave's UI and despises 3DS Max's endless menus and drag & drop crap, so maybe I'm biased toward this sort of menu/button based UI.


About PC gamepads, so far I have found only one good one and that is Logitech's Wingman Rumblepad. all other gamepads I have tried (including Logitech's cheaper models) have been complete garbage. What I would reccomend is that you get that, or a PS2->PC controller adaptor and an actual PS2 Dual Shock controller (make sure the adaptor supports vibration funtion)

Edited, Wed Jan 14 15:05:27 2004 by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#9 Jan 14 2004 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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96 posts
I guess part of my affinity with the keyboard is that I'm a computer major and I work in IT (information technology, not incredibly tough, HAH!).

Check my sig for my jobs, and I'll get into whatever position that is needed with the keyboard, never had a problem. If anything, I think it's even easier with the number pad during battle, you can strafe and go forward and back at the same time by pressing two buttons.

Targeting and moving with the mouse can be a pain if you overcompensate, or one character is partly behind another so that when you click you get the one closer to you instead of the one in the back, you get the wrong target more often than the right one. Tab targetting eliminates that and it's quick to cycle.
#10 Jan 14 2004 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
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Quote:
Targeting and moving with the mouse can be a pain if you overcompensate, or one character is partly behind another so that when you click you get the one closer to you instead of the one in the back, you get the wrong target more often than the right one. Tab targetting eliminates that and it's quick to cycle.


With a controller you target with the dpad, works the same as tab targeting. (left/right cycles forward/backward)
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#11 Jan 14 2004 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
38 posts
Quote:

No, and it's almost certain to not happen because they want to maintain a common cross platform interface.



This can't be the entire truth. One could easily keep the "common" interface for the ps2 and pc if they so desired and still allow us that wish to configure other options. EQ has a "default" configuration. FF could do the same, and then allow non-default options to be configured (such as locked camera mode, mouse move forward, mouse look).

I am not faulting you guys that like it, more power to ya. I've worked on puters for about 12 years now, programming, system admin/etc. Hell, half the keys on my keyboard you can't see the lettering because it's worn off. That however doesn't mean it wouldn't be more comfortable if I could configure some options.

Oh, and what the hell is up with autosort? why the heck doesn't it do that automatically? Heh, thats the silliest thing I've seen yet. Always stack incoming items into the first stack it'll fit in! Don't make me sort my entire inventory every drop.
#12 Jan 14 2004 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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88 posts
There is no difference between the controller controls and the keyboard controls, dont let anyone else tell you otherwise. Now they can improve the controls and stuff but I dont know about getting a customizably reziable/movable interface. Check my posts

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=1070391535751367091&num=0

http://forums2.warcry.com/flat_read.phtml?f=3&id=73365&thread=73365


"Tanks that play with the keyboard are the bane of THF, I have yet to party with a keyboard player than could properly position himself alongside the other tanks and keep the mob facing away from me."

Then they just dont know what they are doing at all, give them a controller why would it be any different. I know how to position myself for a thf to do sneak attack or trick attack, heck I played thf to 30.


-Sent

Edited, Wed Jan 14 15:15:37 2004 by Sentouki
#13 Jan 14 2004 at 3:14 PM Rating: Default
This game really should be played as it was designed to be played - with a PS2-style gamepad. I'd guarantee it (unless you're sadistic) that once you played with the controller for a little bit you'd never imagine how you could have gotten by without it.

I find that Square has done a top-notch job of making the game's UI work extremely well from a PS2 controller. I really can't recommend using a controller enough.

Anyone having problems with mouse/keyboard should go spend the $10 for a PS2->USB adapter (if you already have a PS2 controller), or the $25 to buy a PC controller (make sure it's mostly equivalent to a PS2 controller)

So... Yes, the UI is poor if you aren't using a controller, and it's pretty obvious that Square did a half-assed job there... however, this is only more reason for you to buy a controller - you will enjoy the game so much more!

:)
#14 Jan 14 2004 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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I used the KB/Mouse for 2 days before i realized i couldn't take it anymore. Being a console gamer mainly, it helps to have the Playstation Controller (not to mention this game was designed around it). The adaptor was cheap and the default layout for buttons was perfect (mimics SNES FF control layout).

Other means of targeting objects exist than TAB or using the D-Pad on my controller.

I wrote a macro to help engage mobs faster. (Keep in mind that i'm a PLD so i'm rarely pulling the mobs in.)

/attack <bt> (selects and attacks the 'battle target' i.e. your party's selected target.)
/wait 1
/ma "Flash" <t>
/wait 5
/ja "Provoke" <t>
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#15 Jan 14 2004 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
28 posts
CelestianCorrelus wrote:
Another thing that would be nice is allow us to move the windows around and resize. Being a whm I'd love to be able to actually SEE the group window. at 1600x1200 in the bottom right corner is tiny.

Just pointing out that there is a window resizing feature... outside the game. You can resize both your graphics and the overlay to differnt sizes if you look in your Start menu. :)
#16 Jan 14 2004 at 3:25 PM Rating: Default
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This can't be the entire truth. One could easily keep the "common" interface for the ps2 and pc if they so desired and still allow us that wish to configure other options. EQ has a "default" configuration. FF could do the same, and then allow non-default options to be configured (such as locked camera mode, mouse move forward, mouse look).


Having a common interface means that when PC and PS2 players (or players using any future platforms)ask questions of each other they know what the other person is talking about and use common terminology. When you ask "how do I do X" you can get a meaningfull answer no matter what version you and the person you are talking to are using.

In addition, drasticly changing the UI would diverge the source code even further. Keeping it as direct a port as possible means less bugs creep in and it becomes less work to keep them out because the various versions for different platforms have more in common.

And finally, a dual stick controller is better.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#17 Jan 14 2004 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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2,872 posts
You have to remember that Square is primarily a console developer and FFXI is essentially a console game ported to PC. If you play thinking like a console gamer, the interface makes much more sense.

That being said, I still prefer to use keyboard over gamepad on PC simply because I have easier access to macros and commands, and obviously chatting. I never use my mouse. Once that User Agreement comes up and I click on Accept, my mouse hand moves to the keyboard and I'm ready to rock and roll. ^_^
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#18 Jan 14 2004 at 3:28 PM Rating: Default
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88 posts
Im waiting for someone to explain why a dual analog is somehow better than a keybaord that can do everything the controller can.

-Sent
#19 Jan 14 2004 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
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843 posts
The people who are using THF and cannot position themselves correctly are doing it wrong. Whenever im attacking something i'll hit 7 to auto run with target on...how can people have troubles getting behind them with the keyboard? It's so simple
#20 Jan 14 2004 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Im waiting for someone to explain why a dual analog is somehow better than a keybaord that can do everything the controller can.


It's not any better really, IMO...it's just what I'm more comfortable with. The learning process with a controller is probably a bit easier than with a keyboard (no hotkeys to memorize, less physical area to jump around to get to different keys), but once you get used to either one, I doubt that one has a distinct advantage over another...with one exception: Users that know their keyboard well, and don't use a mouse, never have to move from one device to another to chat. However, I haven't found communication to be a problem for me, and the most important things to communicate I have set up as macros so I don't have to take a hand off the controller to communicate during pulling / combat, or activate weaponskills.

It's just a matter of preference, really.
#21 Jan 14 2004 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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Actually I believe it was a THF who said his Tanks couldn't use the keyboard. While I agree there are many (not everyone) tanks well into their 20s who have no idea how to work with a THFs Sneak Attack (God help them when a THF tries to explain Trick Attack), I don't think it's a matter of using a keyboard or controller.
#22 Jan 14 2004 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually I believe it was a THF who said his Tanks couldn't use the keyboard. While I agree there are many (not everyone) tanks well into their 20s who have no idea how to work with a THFs Sneak Attack (God help them when a THF tries to explain Trick Attack), I don't think it's a matter of using a keyboard or controller.


I didn't say they couldn't just that a lot of them use auto follow in battle and refuse to do otherwise. In addition I've found that those who use the arrow keys still don't manuver as well as somone using a controller. Keyboarders tend to have trouble crossing crowded rooms without drawing agro because they don't have the benefit of dual stick control (one to move one to pan the camera) nor do they have analog directional control. So while the controller players are effortlessly manuvering around the mobs keeping an eye on them as they move with the camera control stick the keyboarder is going "move, stop, look, turn, move, stop, look, turn" Or worse, he's just autofollwing somone else. In either case he invariably gets spotted and draws agro.

Quote:
The people who are using THF and cannot position themselves correctly are doing it wrong. Whenever im attacking something i'll hit 7 to auto run with target on...how can people have troubles getting behind them with the keyboard? It's so simple


This is exactly what I am talking about, and has caused me to disband from retarded partys that absolutely refused to listen. It is not THF's responsibility to run around behind the mob while the tanks play ping pong with it by provoking it back and forth. The tanks are not supposed to run around like hyperactive children and they are not supposed to be lazy bastards that just target the mob and type /follow and then refuse to listen when THF tells them that if they don't knock it off he can't do his job.

Edited, Wed Jan 14 16:27:52 2004 by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#23 Jan 14 2004 at 4:30 PM Rating: Decent
OK, so SE desinged a console game, slap it on a PC, and still expect us to use console style controllers? What is that BS, I don't complain much about SE, but this is bad, we should all write letters and send emails to SE, tell them to change the STUPID UI, EQ changed their UI around 2 years ago to make the game play more enjoyable, why can't SE do it?
#24 Jan 14 2004 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
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405 posts
Personally I hate the mouse movement.

Using the number pad is so much easier, and now that they have "semi-mouse movement" and the keypad movement, it makes it a hassle, becuase if while using the keypad if your mouse is too close to the edge it will make your character spin and take it out of AutoRun.

Also, I dont use the mouse very much besides using the main menu, and by making that the primary means of movement would really f*ck me up.
#25 Jan 14 2004 at 5:50 PM Rating: Decent
Tank can't position with keyboard are you F'n Stupid? Sorry, my bad that just sounds a little ignorant though. You don't adapt well to games do you? The keyboard is much easier to use than the mouse for movement. How hard is it to lock on, run to the mob, and push left or right to move around it?

As for all those config keys someone was talkin about.. hmm lets see F8 for nearest object TAB to cycle objects from left to right by position on the screen, then Shift Tab to go the other way.

The controler to me seems to be more of a problem in itself. What do you do, push a button to pull up the macro list, then push left or right to get to a macro, then press another button to execute it? Instead of the quick and simple Alt-8 or whatever ur favorite key is.

~*~EDIT~*~
Okay so it's not "Dual Stick" control, you can do the same thing with the keyboard. I use the compact controls so I move with WSAD. I can look around either using the mouse, or the left and right arrows while I'm still moving.

It just takes coordination, and the knowledge of your controls, just like any other game. I bet I could move just as smoothly as someone with a controler. Why? Because I know how to use my keys.

Edited, Wed Jan 14 17:57:03 2004 by Rathius
#26 Jan 14 2004 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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318 posts
Quote:
OK, so SE desinged a console game, slap it on a PC, and still expect us to use console style controllers?


Actually, that doesn't appear to be the case.

It's possible to use console-style controllers quite effectively in this game, but they're not in the least bit neccessary. They don't expect you to use a controller at all, which is why the keyboard commands are available, and are the ONLY things described in the manual. In fact, the config program has controllers disabled by default. (I see NOTHING in the manual about how the default setup for controllers works, leading me to believe that they assume that you will be using a keyboard/mouse).
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