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Unfair/unbalanced party responsibilitiesFollow

#1 Jan 12 2004 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
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I've had a week of hell in Valkurm (added seven people to blacklist), and I need to say something before I die and respawn in Square headquarters with TNT strapped to my chest.

Here's the situation:

I'm an Elvaan samurai/warrior leveling in the Dunes, from level 12-20. For the last few groups I've been in, I feel like I've had to do everything for the group except heal: decide where to camp, what to kill, be a main tank, come up with and repeatedly remind people of skillchains, argue with the group over why it's not in our best interest to pull an IT mob that will kill us, and pull for the party for long, extended periods of time. I'm not a control freak or anything - it's just that no one in the group was willing, or able to do these things, and most were advanced jobs goung through Valkurm the second time! (and some couldn't even skillchain... shame shame)

After doing this for several hours, I'd notice as I was running back with the gazillionth mob, that it was more like I was 'soloing' all these monsters, with some healing and offensive help. Some members wouldn't even engage until I'd hit it a few times on my own. Sigh. I think some party members get thrown all the work on them, and it's not fair.

So, I'm wondering:

Do you think some party responsibilities are unbalanced? In terms of things you have to worry about. For intance, the thankless job of pulling that has the puller constantly running. Who should pull? Do you think some jobs have it easier than others? It definitely seems that way to me. Some just sit back and wait for the monsters to come without having to worry about (or refuse) provoking, or chaining, or healing.

I realize that as much whining as I've done here, some of you have carried your groups above and beyond what I've listed here. I remember a Paladin that did almost everything for our group - pulling, leading, healing, tanking, educating - and for players like that I am extremely grateful.
#2 Jan 12 2004 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Small example, stay with me here:
You are an office manager. You have 6 employees - three that are, generally decent workers but never really excel; two that do just enough to get away with not doing anything; and one who is extremely efficient and actually likes getting things done. A new project comes up and you need to assign someone to the project. To whom do you give it?

The point is that the people who are capable will always, in nearly any circumstance, get the most work. If you have a party with only one or two capable people, then those two people will manage everything.
Part of this is self-inflicted - the "I'd rather do it myself rather than delegate to someone who may ***** it up" mentality. I tend to do this, especially at work (level 35 systems architect with subbed DBA17). I do it in the game, too - I'll pull/lead/pick camp locations/monitor health/etc. if no one else is simply because I want to enjoy the game.
If you know what you're doing, and someone else seems to be taking all the load, let them know you know what you're doing and ask if you can help by assuming a role. If you're lucky and in a party where more than half the group is competent, then everyone can share the balance - rotate positions, say have one person pull one mob, then another grabs the next when the first is nearly dead.
Unfortunately, there seems to be 4 major positions in what are usually 6-person parties; this can tend to leave two people "slacking off". However, realize that everyone in the party is there for a reason - to help gain the maximum exp with the minimum impact. Even if someone isn't a puller, nuker, tank, or healer, they still help with the kill and, therefore, still help the party.
If you're in a party and feel like you're doing all the work, let people know. If no one asks to help, simply tell them "I'm not pulling another mob, I need to *whatever*; someone else pull" and stick to it. If no one does anything or they complain about you not doing "your job", ditch 'em. I'd be glad to have someone as industrious as that in a group with me, and a lot of other people would agree.
#3 Jan 12 2004 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Excellent post! Unfortunately for myself, I play a lowely mithra monk(read: not a tank), and I really can't play too much of a leadership role in most parties that have experienced tanks/whm. I try to do the best I can, whether that be giving advice, setting up renkei, or deciding where to go, but I'm somewhat limited by my class decision.
#4 Jan 12 2004 at 7:09 PM Rating: Decent
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182 posts
I'm actually surprised by how the balanced the different jobs are. There's a job for every kind of personality and play style, and every job can contribute quite a bit. In addition, few jobs are sufficient on their own (for maximum efficiency) -- a good sub is required to be effective. I know exactly what Melancoholic is talking about, but that same thing never bothers me, since it's more fun to run around, pull stuff, and take damage, then just wait there and do some damage when the monster arrives. I know what I'm talking about, too, since I was MNK at first -- an easy, safe class -- the downside being it's not as fun (you deal damage, and usually just die last if anything goes wrong). The moment I got WAR's Provoke, it became a whole different game; I was able to become a scout/puller/tank, which is a lot more responsibility. I saw what I didn't like about my class and was able to fix it simply using a subjob. Similarly, Melancoholic can switch to a different job pretty quickly if he's tired of putting himself in danger all the time.

I think the only trouble is some people are content cruising through the game without much responsibility placed on them in party combat. But really, it's up to them.

The only thing that really bothers me is how critical a WHM is to any good party. (OK, I know a WHM is not strictly necessary, but be serious... It's just a lot better if one is there.) Not so much that fact itself, but because WHMs then get into a position when they'll leave after a couple of battles because the EXP is just not up to their high standards. I'm not saying all WHMs are like that, but many are. It sucks; it makes WHMs look superior when really they're just less frequent. To me, that's the only serious imbalance in the job system.

yurik (Unicorn) MNK/20 WAR/9 -- Windurst

Edited, Tue Jan 13 14:19:23 2004 by yurik
#5 Jan 12 2004 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It sucks; it makes WHMs look superior when really they're just less frequent.


What do you mean, we're not superior? Of course we're superior! It's so self-evident. ^^ Er... I mean, I agree with you totally. There's not terribly much that can be done about it, however. Pretty much every MMORPG has had that problem -- as you said, there's types of play for every personality type. The type of person that enjoys straight healing and nothing but is kinda rare though. ^^; At least compared to those that like tanking or melee damage-dealing or nuking or... whatever.

So yeah... you have the inevitable result that WHM's start getting picky about their parties, their experience, etc... damn'd prima donnas. ^^;; To be fair, though -- on the topic of this thread, one of the largest role responsibilities lies squarely on the shoulders of your WHM. The WHM can't be slacking off, they have to be making sure everybody else stays alive. It can be a high-stress job (keeping in mind this is a game), and it's not one that offers too much leniency.

Really, the three main roles you'd really need to safeguard the party is healer, puller and tank. Damage-dealer or nuker can be much more flexible. While there's certainly many capable party configurations that don't have solid people in those three positions, you're fairly guaranteed a good party if you *do*. Assuming none of the other three are actively incompetent (pulling mobs while the team is already fighting one, for example), you'll be golden.. Once a person has to take up more than one role it can be too stressful.
#6 Jan 13 2004 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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486 posts
I agree with a lot of what you wrote - luckily I tend to get into reasonable parties. One thing I feel is that a party should have 1 "main tank" and 1 "main puller", and they should not be the same person.

For example, a thief with a ranged weapon (run out, shoot, run back) makes a great puller. When the mob arrives the tank provokes it off the puller. In general, I look for the person with a ranged weapon to be the puller.

If no one has a ranged weapon, then anyone other than the main tanker with a main or subbed war (for provoke) should be the puller.

If you only have 1 tank and no one else has ranged weapons, I would still ask the red mage, say, to cast bio and run back before I'd ask the main tank to provoke. Just me though.
#7 Jan 13 2004 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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134 posts
A lot of people are still learning the ropes. The game from levels 1-10 can be quite overwhelming. Those are the levels most peoples still learning the game. Now some even need more time to learn and get to lvl 15ish before they have a good handle on their character and what to do.

Ive been to the dunes a few times, noticed lots of people go there but do a /sea and most dont have a subjob yet. Understand that these people are probably on their first character and dont have a good understanding yet. Im quite leary of grouping with people that dont have their subjob yet. If they do you know they at least made it to lvl 18 and should know the game by now. Not always the case but a good rule of thumb.

Dont know why people go to the dunes, really if you want to level from 10 to 15 head to the maze of Shakrami in Tahrongi canyon. Ive found lots of vetran players go their to quickly level as you can get to lvl 10 to 15 in about 3 hours if your in a good party. Find a full group. Only fight maze makers and fear gobs until your guys are all at least lvl 12-13. Dont venture too far from zone entrance. Lots of maze makers in the first open cavern. Once you guys get around lvl 12-13 you can venture in a little more but always be wary. This place is probably the easiest place to get killed and train gobs and ghouls. You get 200 xp per kill. The place is a goldmine.
#8 Jan 13 2004 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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It is pretty helpful in those kinds of situations to have a steady group of friends that you party with each night. It gets rough at times trying to get everybody on at the same time and in the same general location, but it is definatly worth it once you build up a core group of players that know what their job is and everybody has a role. I'm not speaking of Job roles either.

In my steady group we have the person that picks a zone to fight in and organizes the battle plans, another to organize the people and search for additional party members, another to put the skillchain and tactics together, and another ready to look things up, etc. So each night we get together we already know who is doing what and we don't have one person that is running the entire show.
#9 Jan 13 2004 at 11:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I only can wish that some players would differ to me for leadership and responsibility instead of ruching into battle like fools.

Believe me a player that Thinks they know waht they're doing is far worse than a player who Knows they don't know and lets you do the work.
____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#10 Jan 13 2004 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
Roles in a party can vary as well.. and WHMs don't ALWAYS have to be indispensible. But yeah, I agree.. it can sometimes be pretty unbalanced.

Example: Last night, we had a 5 person party in Valkurm, L14-15. PLD/WAR (me), DRK/WAR, MNK, MNK and BLM/WHM. With no WHM main, and only two of us even able to cast Cure, we were able to score about 3k xp in an hour. We added a RDM later and ended up with another 2.5k in an hour before I had to go sleep. I had just ding'd to 14 prior to joining this party, and was most of the way to 16 by the end of the two hour mark.

Why did it work out? DRK/WAR pulled, I tanked, BLM/WHM nuked. In fact, the two MNKs were in essence newbies. Neither knew how to skill chain, and only one knew how to stun bombs off of goblins. But it still worked just fine, and I still ended up just doing the tank job.

I don't see anything wrong with that. 6 member parties, you have to expect some people with more experience than others, and if you somehow end up with 6 experienced people, good for you. But I enjoyed teaching and practicing renkei chains with the monks... all the while racking up xp.
#11 Jan 13 2004 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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To speak to the main topic I feel your pain. I am new enough that I don't know it all . . . I don't have ADV Job yet, and am itching for it. I also see a lot of ppl in your plight, and the only advice I can offer is to hang in there, and teach these people.

Often times the people like you were with kinda floated through their first job. It's possible, even if not likely. It's possible that these people were part of LS groups that "helped" a little too much so that the players don't really understand Party dynamics.

To speak to a bit of a sidebar

Asw a RDM I have great success pulling.

thanks
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