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Story Arcs For Quester Givers in EQFollow

#1 Sep 16 2015 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
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Gbaji and Remianen were talking about this in a raid thread. I'll preface the direct quote with a comment as I think this discussion bears its own thread.

"Story arcs" or "hub quest givers" have been used better in other games. I'm not sure the level lock-outs of CoH work in EQ (only place we have that now is the tutorial and Vox/naggy kills?). WoW does it with a range of success (sometimes they are really lame cut and paste of what you've done many times, but then again so is exterminating rats in EQ. Other times the lore in WoW is underwhelming at best...). Lots of console games do it... my fiancee was playing Skyrim which is clearly a sandbox-style game that lets you make choices that change your options. Fable is a game based entirely on this. All of it sounds like the old "Choose your own adventure" books to me. This is a good thing.

EQ has had aspects of it, it was more zone based than specific NPC based, but Velious alone was good for lore based questing. The newbie line (up to 50s at least) in The Serpent's Spine made a reasonable effort at this too.

It's funny really... EQ Devs could easily enhance this just by using old quest NPCs for more quests as expansions trail on. Some quests could continue for upgrades with the story continuing. Other quests could be fresh but logical to the NPC's place in the lore. The marsingers in Gfay come to mind, as does that ogre chef in the Feerott and so on. Shady in commonlands should breadcrumb you to all sorts of unsavory folks in Norrath...

gbaji wrote:
Remianen wrote:
gbaji wrote:
As I mentioned earlier, the player base has largely moved on with regard to this. The one idea I can think of is to create more story arcs that follow level progression. A game I really really liked (but unfortunately closed down) was City of Heroes, and they did this really really well. I enjoyed playing new characters, trying out new builds, and working through the story lines. Each story arc typically crossed about a 5 level range (and you couldn't get them once you leveled past them).


Not exactly true. Granted, that may have been past your time.


Hah. I actually forgot about that. Which is strange given that I used that specifically to pick up some accolades. My main point though was that this provided real color to the leveling process rather than just a grind. Higher level characters being able to go back and go through missions they missed on the way somewhat supports my argument. There were enough different paths to follow story-wise that you could easily level through a range and miss quite a few of them. This meant that there was plenty of stuff to do that kept you engaged and interested. And, more importantly, made leveling a new character less about getting to the top level, as traveling there through a series of such story lines. It was actually fun playing a lower level character, purely for the sake of playing that character.

EQ has nothing like this. I suppose the progression/partisan task lines in some of the newer expansions kinda qualify. But they still managed to make them more grind like then fun. In most cases, there are a number of quest givers, and each gives just a few tasks, but later ones often have dependencies on completing tasks, often from other quest givers. So instead of each one giving you a series of tasks that you complete in order, which make up an entire storyline, you get a mish mash of tasks that have requirements that aren't explicitly stated to you (requiring you to wander around randomly trying stuff, or looking them up here). CoH told you a story with each contact. Each contact had his/her own set of missions to do. And you could just run through their missions without having requirements that you had to discover on your own. They would also introduce you to new contacts, opening their story arcs up for you.

It was a far far more user friendly experience. Yes, some saw it as being "led by the nose" through content. But the content was fun. It wasn't frustrating hours wandering over here, then there. Then getting stuck on one task that was blocking you from being able to move on to tasks from other givers. I suppose EQ wanted them to be more integrated, and they succeeded at that, but I don't think that's really a better way to go. More importantly, the whole system scaled all the way up, and occupied you all the way up through leveling. I knew players who would "street sweep" in CoH for exp, and I always wondered why. Yes, you could just roam around in one area killing (er... arresting) bad guys. But the missions were so much vastly more fun (and challenging, but generally not horribly more), that to me, it was a no-brainer. And the scenery changed. That was nice.

Edited, Sep 16th 2015 4:41pm by gbaji
#2 Sep 17 2015 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Hey. That guy is a genius! Smiley: grin

One thing I'd add, is that CoH had a really really good scaling system for their missions. They were just as doable solo as in a full group. They additionally had a difficulty slider that allowed you to set your own difficulty for your missions. This just changed the level and composition of the NPCS in the missions. Difficulties actually alternated as you moved them up between increasing the level of the mobs, and adding an extra mob to a spawn. Lowest difficulty would have mostly just minions, with the occasional lieutenant (often as the "main bad" in the mission). Top level difficulty tended to have spawns with more bosses accompanied by a minion, or two lieutenant spawns (for those not aware, mobs in CoH came in three flavors, minions, which were super easy, lieutenants, which were tougher and tended to have special abilities, and bosses, which were equivalent to basic nameds in EQ). It was a great system that allowed you to adjust to your own character's capabilities and sometimes to the type of mobs you were going to encounter, since some were inherently more difficult for some character types. Additionally, having more characters in your group meant bigger spawn sizes (ie: number of mobs in a spawn spot). It worked really really well.

I would absolutely love if EQ could figure out a way to adopt something like this. The HAs are already part way there, but as configured now, provide no means to adjust difficulty, and don't actually scale much to group size. They also need to be faster. Part of the issue is the scaling thing. The number of mobs you need to kill or items to collect in each stage don't actually seem to change based on group numbers. So having a group means completing the HA faster (much much faster), than trying to solo it. Which is great if you can get a group when you want to play. But not so great if you have a shortish amount of time to play and don't have a group of people lined up to play with at that time. In CoH, you could generally complete a mission solo or grouped in about the same time (since the mob number scaled directly to the group size), and most missions could be completed in 30 minutes or less. This meant you could just log on whenever you wanted, and if you could get into a group, that was great, but if you couldn't, you could still bang out a mission or three depending on the time you had to play solo, and not ever feel like you were "stuck" waiting for something else to happen so you could play.

Dunno. I really really liked their system. It made everything from casual up to guild (super group) play fun and engaging. I'm not sure if the devs would ever have the time or inclination to implement something like this, but it does seem as though the HAs are a step in the right direction. But it's still somewhat incomplete. If they could actually develop a level/number scaling system for them, then they could much more easily create new HAs for any level range, with any type of mob, in any zone. Once that's done, then creating task givers to hand out tasks that involve them becomes a pretty simple bit of coding. This would be a much easier way to "revamp" older zones, without actually having to change the zones themselves. Just add in some task givers (or use existing NPCs for this), and use the HA system for most of the tasks (some could certainly still involve doing stuff in the normal non-instanced zone of course).

I think the biggest obstacle to changing old content and zones is, well, changing the old content and zones. My understanding is that the code that handles the older EQ zones is "funky" (yes, that's a technical term), and really really really hard to change without affecting other random stuff you probably didn't think was going to be affected. Stuff like "if we move this NPC from point A to point B, half the mobs in the zone will start pathing under the ground, and we don't know why". I think if they can first create a standard system for creating/scaling tasks/HAs, then they should be able to utilize that code for any level, mob, or zone. Theoretically, at least. And that would be much easier than trying to make manual changes to every zone in the game.
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