Necessary classes for raids :: World of Warcraft

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#27 Sep 28 2015 at 5:35 AM Rating: Excellent

Remianen

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RatheLinden wrote:

Ok. So im not trying to be an *** or pick on SK's. But..Advantage all the way around = Paladin.

For now.

We see these swings from expansion to expansion. However, the one thing that I think is missed in these discussions is time ratio. If you're creating a character simply to raid and do nothing else, then how the character performs on raids is the only thing that matters. But very few people do that. If the class is awesome on raids but boring as harvesting sap by hand in the rest of the game, that can pose a significant problem. I've had that problem over the years. I've raided in (then) current content with every class except beastlord (and I'd never raid with one of those. I still harbor hatred for the class from their introduction though I have one at 90). My two paladins are 70 and 87 and the higher one raided SoD and UF (70 quit raiding in DoDh). My SKs are 100, 90, and 85 and have raided from SoF on up. My problem has always been maintaining interest during the 8-10 hours I play when I'm not raiding (since raid windows have shortened significantly over the years, a fact I lament in another thread).

Does anyone remember "cleric burnout"? Back in the day, every high end guild would constantly recruit clerics because they'd "burn out" and either quit playing or switch classes. This was because, to many, the class was boring but absolutely essential for raids and this problem was exacerbated by the "none of the credit, all of the blame" perception that was so common. I'm sure everyone knows someone who played a cleric on raids and something else outside of raids.

There are few classes that are truly necessary for raids. But if someone's rolling a character specifically because it's "necessary" and not because they enjoy the class, they're bound to become prisoners of their own device (yay! Eagles reference). What should also be considered is the expansion swing I alluded to earlier. From expansion to expansion, some classes will be lifted up and others will find themselves losing ground as far as usefulness to raids. But there are three that I can think of that seem immune to that: warrior (duh), cleric (at least until DBG allows merc usage and/or rolls out the Master tier and even then...), and wizard. There are other classes you can toss out but these are the three that have always been key from original to current.

Though Linden, I wholeheartedly disagree that Paladins swarm better than SKs. You're talking swarming at 95+ with raid gear. My SKs start swarming at 60 with group gear (and they get better as they advance in level, gear, and AA), even now. Add an easy to acquire 2.0 and it gets even more ridiculous. There is a fundamental reason the population of SKs exploded (and Paladins, in the history of this game, have never had a similar population boom. Not even pre-Ward of Tunare nerf) in the SoD to VoA era. There was a time when you couldn't walk two feet without tripping over a dozen 80+ SKs. There was a reason for that. SKs could swarm earlier, cheaper, and less skill-intensively than any other class. You can quad kite with a mage but that doesn't mean they're better at it than wizards. You mention all of these abilities that are proccing heals and mitigation and so forth but last I heard, you can't heal a mob to death. That's where the SK advantage comes in. Healing themselves while damaging the mob is the big difference and why they can do it so early and so well inherently. Again, I'm not saying Paladins CAN'T swarm. What I am saying is that comparing them to the class that has specialized in it is foolhardy. And SKs were rolling in huge AA counts before HAs existed (as were Rangers). It should be noted that Paladins needed a pretty heavy handed nerf to SK abilities to even begin to close the gap. I should also note that post-nerf, the only thing it really accomplished was delaying things. Whereas previously I could swarm Kaesora Library (with some difficulty) at 85, now my 85 has serious trouble but my 100 can easily wipe the zone in 1-2 pulls (sometimes 3 due to stragglers). This isn't news and I'm not exceptional. I've seen MUCH more impressive displays. Heck, I can't even keep the west side of the river in Feerott clear before respawn (I'm always 4-5 mins short) and I've seen SKs monopolize entire swaths of the Grounds.

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#28 Sep 28 2015 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent

gbaji

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RatheLinden wrote:

Ok. So im not trying to be an *** or pick on SK's. But..Advantage all the way around = Paladin.

Sure, for situations where defensive capability is more important than being able to dish out damage (which obviously does apply to most raid tanking situations). And to be fair, the title of the thread is about necessary classes for raids, so that's relevant. But as I believe has been mentioned a few times, the devs do (usually) balance out solo/group capability against raid power. And, as has also been mentioned a few times, each expansion tends to change things. SKs did get somewhat dorked on the last expansion (or two, depending on how you look at it), but that's because they were seen as massively overpowered in solo/group play previously. These things tend to wax and wane.

You also have to look at a broader level range (again though, somewhat stepping outside the thread title here). Not everyone creates a character and only plays them at the top level in the top raid challenges. Most players are going to play their characters (at least somewhat) along the way. They're going to participate in pickup style raids along the way. They're going to run through progression/partisan tasks along the way. All of those things factor in to the "fun" of playing a character. I don't think anyone has argued (even remotely) that SKs are as desired for raids as Paladins. The question is whether that lack of relatively desirability for SKs is such a hindrance that it outweighs other benefits that SKs have in other parts of the game. As several people have pointed out, guild leadership rarely just flat out disallows a given class from participating on a raid. Obviously, you need enough of the right abilities on a raid to succeed, but everything past that is gravy.

Paladins have always been the healing/defending knight, with SKs being much more offensive. Yes, this is problematic when raiding because class specialization comes in. If another class has better DPS, the raid will be better off with that class for damage dealing purposes. If another class is better at mitigation, then the raid will be better off with that class mitigating damage. Same deal with healing, crowd control, buffs, debuffs, etc... Classes (like Necros and SKs) that are "good" at several things, but not "the best" at any of them, will tend to automatically be at a disadvantage when raiding. Again though, these same factors tend to make them much better at solo and group play, where you wont have "the best" of every different role available. In that situation, a class that can tank, and snare, and self heal (a bit), and has good damage will often be better than one that can just tank, or just heal. Certainly, that's the case when soloing.

I can't speak directly to the current state of SK soloing, but I can say that Paladins basically have to find undead only camps to be able to kill at even a halfway decent rate. There are some level ranges and camps that are excellent for paladins, and others that drag horribly. As you point out, with CoTF and HAs, Paladins have some advantages there, but even in DH HAs, you always get a section or two with live mobs. SKs (pretty much all other classes for that matter) have many more choices available. Yes. If all I want to do is grind AAs by doing the same undead heavy camps/HAs over and over, I have a slight advantage (or at least not a disadvantage depending on what other class we're comparing to). But that kinda tosses progression/partisan stuff out the window. It's kind of a funny thing because I get used to killing undead mobs at a given rate, and then whenever I'm trying to kill live mobs, it's really really noticeable how much slower it is. Painfully slow (that's usually when I log on my wizard btw).

Again, I can't speak directly to SK kill rates soloing, but my gut tells me that they're still much much faster on most content, and at least in the same league even against undead (and it's a lot easier to avoid undead only camps than it is to find them).

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#29 Sep 29 2015 at 8:47 PM Rating: Good

ElricVon

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I've been raiding endgame since 2011, and midtier for 4 years before that. No clue on the "classic" days , as I started EQ in 2006,

All classes are needed on raids, and while currently SK;'s lack utility, they're great off tanks/etc. I know for Ring of Valor, when learning new content, any of the 3 tank classes might be filling in on the Bosses or trash. Once farming starts, SK/Pal are trash tanks again (and splashers...)

That said, a spot in most endgame guilds will be hard to get. Turnover is low, and any more than 3 or 4 SK on the roster, and they'll have serious bench time.

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#30 Sep 30 2015 at 2:14 AM Rating: Good

__DEL__1672618586850

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gbaji wrote:

RatheLinden wrote:

Ok. So im not trying to be an *** or pick on SK's. But..Advantage all the way around = Paladin.

Sure, for situations where defensive capability is more important than being able to dish out damage (which obviously does apply to most raid tanking situations). And to be fair, the title of the thread is about necessary classes for raids, so that's relevant. But as I believe has been mentioned a few times, the devs do (usually) balance out solo/group capability against raid power. And, as has also been mentioned a few times, each expansion tends to change things. SKs did get somewhat dorked on the last expansion (or two, depending on how you look at it), but that's because they were seen as massively overpowered in solo/group play previously. These things tend to wax and wane.

You also have to look at a broader level range (again though, somewhat stepping outside the thread title here). Not everyone creates a character and only plays them at the top level in the top raid challenges. Most players are going to play their characters (at least somewhat) along the way. They're going to participate in pickup style raids along the way. They're going to run through progression/partisan tasks along the way. All of those things factor in to the "fun" of playing a character. I don't think anyone has argued (even remotely) that SKs are as desired for raids as Paladins. The question is whether that lack of relatively desirability for SKs is such a hindrance that it outweighs other benefits that SKs have in other parts of the game. As several people have pointed out, guild leadership rarely just flat out disallows a given class from participating on a raid. Obviously, you need enough of the right abilities on a raid to succeed, but everything past that is gravy.

Paladins have always been the healing/defending knight, with SKs being much more offensive. Yes, this is problematic when raiding because class specialization comes in. If another class has better DPS, the raid will be better off with that class for damage dealing purposes. If another class is better at mitigation, then the raid will be better off with that class mitigating damage. Same deal with healing, crowd control, buffs, debuffs, etc... Classes (like Necros and SKs) that are "good" at several things, but not "the best" at any of them, will tend to automatically be at a disadvantage when raiding. Again though, these same factors tend to make them much better at solo and group play, where you wont have "the best" of every different role available. In that situation, a class that can tank, and snare, and self heal (a bit), and has good damage will often be better than one that can just tank, or just heal. Certainly, that's the case when soloing.

I can't speak directly to the current state of SK soloing, but I can say that Paladins basically have to find undead only camps to be able to kill at even a halfway decent rate. There are some level ranges and camps that are excellent for paladins, and others that drag horribly. As you point out, with CoTF and HAs, Paladins have some advantages there, but even in DH HAs, you always get a section or two with live mobs. SKs (pretty much all other classes for that matter) have many more choices available. Yes. If all I want to do is grind AAs by doing the same undead heavy camps/HAs over and over, I have a slight advantage (or at least not a disadvantage depending on what other class we're comparing to). But that kinda tosses progression/partisan stuff out the window. It's kind of a funny thing because I get used to killing undead mobs at a given rate, and then whenever I'm trying to kill live mobs, it's really really noticeable how much slower it is. Painfully slow (that's usually when I log on my wizard btw).

Again, I can't speak directly to SK kill rates soloing, but my gut tells me that they're still much much faster on most content, and at least in the same league even against undead (and it's a lot easier to avoid undead only camps than it is to find them).

I question that too....I dont think an SK is higher dps in group or raid content on LIVE mobs......I would be interested to see some legit parsing data from the SK class....This is what I am doing.

/GU Pria the Penitent in 75s, 13898k @185307 / #1 Linden 5969k@(91835 in 65s) [42.95%]
/GU Warleader Jocelyn in 83s, 13550k @163251 / #1 Linden 4104k@(61256 in 67s) [30.29%]

/GU Efreeti Lord Aresh in 97s, 100522k @1036313 / #11 Linden 3395k@(42441 in 80s) [3.38%]

Edited, Sep 30th 2015 4:39am by RatheLinden

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#31 Sep 30 2015 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good

gbaji

Encyclopedia

35,568 posts

Are you counting dot, dd, and lifetap damage in those parses? Pure melee damage, SKs and Paladins should be about equal, with Paladins having a significant edge against undead mobs. But in terms of various non-melee damage effects, SKs should significantly outweigh Paladins. Again, I don't play a SK, but everything I've seen and heard about in game suggests that they do a lot more damage than Paladins against normal mobs, and certainly looking at the laundry list of offensive spells and abilities they get would seem to support that.

And again, this isn't just about parsed damage against raid mobs. Part of the power/enjoyment of a class is what you can do when you're *not* raiding. That kinda has to be balanced in some way. Sucks maybe, but on the flip side, if they made SKs just as useful to raids as Paladins, don't you think they'd have to also make Paladins as solo capable as SKs (against all mobs, not just undead)? There's a point at which, unless your dev appproach is to make all classes generic and identical with just cosmetic name changes differentiating them, you have to allow for the fact that some classes are going to be better at some aspects of the game than others.

Well. I suppose it's possible to balance things such that every class is equally capable at all phases of the game, but each in their own unique way. But that would be super hard to do, and nearly impossible to maintain as new content is added to the game.

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#32 Sep 30 2015 at 6:22 PM Rating: Default

__DEL__1672618586850

Scholar

45 posts

yeah well solo/molo Paladins are probably the best in the game for TDS exp atm...Moloing we can do tds top tier

Necromaticus Abominatio: -- DMG: 14006558 -- DPS: 24275 -- Scaled: 24275 -- Slash: 5639590 -- DirDmg: 4587428 -- Slay: 3546086 -- Bash: 147704 -- Environmental: 85750 -- % dmg as normal: 53.2% -- % dmg as critical: 43.6% -- Non-crit rate: 84.3% -- crit rate: 14.9% -- crippling rate: 0.8% -- Attempts: 2283 -- Hits: 1983 -- Missed: 300 -- Accuracy: 86.9% -- Avg Hit: 7063 -- Max hit: 181863 -- DMG to PC: 9570848
GU Necromaticus Abominatio in 577s, 14007k @24276 / #1 Linden + pets 14007k@(24276 in 577s) [100%]

Brothers Island pick any target, its solo/moloable
/GU Lidia the Castaway in 159s, 10928k @68728 / #1 Linden + pets 10928k@(68728 in 159s) [100%]

GU Sir Raint in 34s, 6071k @178564 / #1 Linden 6071k@(178564 in 34s) [100%]
So yeah i agree its about outside of raids too, the 6 hours I spend when I am not raiding. I am owning top tier TDS zones while SK's are swarming the grounds.

Edited, Sep 30th 2015 8:24pm by RatheLinden

Edited, Sep 30th 2015 8:30pm by RatheLinden

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#33 Sep 30 2015 at 7:57 PM Rating: Good

gbaji

Encyclopedia

35,568 posts

Again. Absent context, those numbers mean nothing to me. You're also cherry picking three mobs from two different expansions, all of which are flagged undead. This in no way counters my point that SKs do better soloing/moloing against live mobs, and thus have many more locations they can camp, and many more options in terms of (basic) loot, much greater ability to do progression/partisan/whatever stuff, etc, etc, etc.

If the entire game consists of doing nothing but attacking mobs that your class is specifically designed to have an advantage fighting, you have a great point. Paladins have one set of mobs that we're awesome at fighting. The problem, and balancing point to this, is that the large majority of mobs in EQ are not undead. The balance to Paladins doing so well against undead mobs is that we do well below par against everything else. So for exp grinds? Advantage us if we can find an open undead camp. For most zone tasks and quests? Disadvantage us. For most progression? Disadvantage us. If every junk/sellable item we ever want to obtain drops only from undead mobs, we're golden. But they don't. Hence, the problem. Ditto with spell drops, trade skill components, augs, etc, etc, etc.

If you don't ever need or want to do anything outside of raiding and grinding, then yes, Paladins do have some nice advantages. But for most players, that's not the extent of their playing enjoyment. And the Devs have to balance against that as well.

If someone, with maybe minimal experience playing EQ (but a skilled person who presumably can pick up the game well) came to you and said he was going to start a character (let's say heroic), and wanted to level up naturally. No power leveling, no high level groups letting him tag along and giving him all the nice drops. No getting geared up via raid handouts, or anything. Just start with the heroic gear and move forward, earning only what he can get along the way, and upgrading purely on his own drops and purchasable stuff (we can negotiate over whether he buys plat or whatever, but that really doesn't matter). Let's also imagine that he's deciding between SK and Paladin. Which would you recommend? Not based on what you prefer and have experience with, but out of an honest assessment of which of those two classes will have an easier time traveling around, gaining exp, gaining loot, and advancing?

Heck. Expand that. He wants to play a plate wearer (So add Warrior to the mix). The answer would be SK, hands down, right? Much easier to play. Much more fun "toys". More abilities that make solo/molo life easier. Far more places he can easily get to and hunt. More drop opportunities (so more access to valuable sellable stuff, or even usable for himself). With my paladin, I notice that at any given level, I'm really limited in terms of where I can effectively hunt. SKs don't have that problem. Again, if all that matters is exp grinding, then that's not a big deal. But if I actually want to do broader content, it kinda is.

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#34 Sep 30 2015 at 11:56 PM Rating: Default

__DEL__1672618586850

Scholar

45 posts

See that mindset is the problem for most paladins. We are told we can only do undead. Undead, undead and more

undead. We are fed ******** that we are not a dps class, and more ******** about aour lack of mitigation. So the

majority of Paladins accept that and never experience our full potential. Paladins- Learn to think outside the box.

Most Paladins believe the same things you believe Gbaji. If you learn how to use all of your utility efficiently, and

thats key, efficiency, you can keep mitgation controlled and tank better then a warrior or an SK in any molo, solo

situation.

Example: Necromaticus Abominatio in 577s, 14007k @24276 / #1 Linden + pets 14007k@(24276 in 577s)

[100%]
Most paladins will use the argument, "well yeah its undead so dps boost makes it easier." Ok, go with that approach

and youll die. Dont think undead = dps. No it doesnt have any advantage offensively for the paladin, but one: The

ability to slow, this is a mitigation tactic, not dps. The challenge facing the Paladin, in this case, is not dps, its

efficiency! It is all about using the right order of disciplines, clickies, AA's, merc and mana to the fullest advantage,

which means the majority of the fight will drastically cripple us offensively but sustain us for the long fight. I can see

that you have no experience in the challenge presented in TDS top tier zones, its next to impossible, and very much

impossible for an SK to molo tds past T1 because they cant do both things that the Paladin is able to do: heal the

merc and self, while mitigating more then 9 million in dmg the mob will do before the fight ends. And maxed healing

the merc cannot keep the player and itself alive for the duration of the fight. Thinking outside the box this is how its

done:

Spell line up:

1. Brilliant Vindication (Twin proc effect)
2. Impose for Honor. (This over Valliant Deflection because cost to mana is only 170, the other, 1112).
3. Wave of Grief
4. Wave of Sorrow
5. Staunch Stance
6. Splash of cleansing
7. Force of the darkened Sea
8. Burst of splendor
9. Burst of Sunrise
10. Burst of Dayspring
11. Sorrow
12. Grief

Power Source: Ocean Tear to start for maximun mana pool. That extra 8k mana boost will be used.

Yaulp AA activated the entire fight, of course for mana regen.

For hate: Force of the darkened Sea / Impose for honor / FOD but i prefer Disruption for DPS and aggo is a non

issue. if it is "Unflinching Affirmation" grab back. then goto to FOD, etc etc. ok. so-

On engage, Deflection. Valorous Rage / Helix of the undying for slow. Force of disruption. Impose for honor. Pet

down. Aggro locked. merc on balanced before Deflection fades. Remove Valorous rage before deflection ends

especially with Ocean Tear PS in. Armour of the inquisitor. Armor of Ardency. Staunch Stance. (Armor first over

holyguardian because it will be needed again and its the quickest cooldown def AA. Only stack what you absolutely

need to. So Armor and Armour will keep you alive for the first duration of Armor AA relying mostly on merc healing,

I want to burn that up first for the obvious reason that merc can go passive and med, I cant. Group healing and

hovering over Grief / Sorrow in case health drops low is my focus at this point. I will have Brilliant Vindication procd

constantly while using Armor of Ardency for max heal if burst is needed. I use Force of the darkened Sea stun for

possible Group heal proc and hate, its cheap 170 mana cost no problem. "Disruption Persecution Nuke" every time

its up for dps and group proc chance. Once my mana drops below 90 percent, I switch back to Geomantic PS,

and begin to breath easier, what a different a power source makes, especially the GEO so swapping out PS my pool

goes back to 100 percent. First Disciplines ends. healing effectiveness is still boosted for another 3 minutes, at

around 150 percent effectiveness. Activate Holyguardian Disc. Mitigation is better now so, depending on our mana,

mercs mana, you might rest the merc and rely on BV, burst healing, and group heals. Adjustments might be made,

depending on mana, amount of AA (utility) in reserve. etc. End of Holyguardian. Now activate Group armour of the

inquisitor, First Spire of holiness, plus you have the healing proc up now from holy guardian disc. so your healing

effectiveness is almost maxed. group heals landing for around 90k crit, burst heals as high as 160k maybe more. The

reason for this tactic, is to save my last decent Disc and make it through the next minute without running a disc. next

disc activated Skalber Mantle. Balancing mana consuption between merc and player is the focus. Once Skalber

Mantle Fades, Armor of Ardency should be up and ready to go again. So Armor of ardency running, Glyph of

Courage for healing boost. by now named is down to around 25-30 percent..Depending on amount of utility, and

type of utility in reserve, will determine what, if any offensive Abilities I might use. Pureforge, holyforge off the table,

unless Def AA are all down. Analyze remaining utility and finish the job.

Ok so my composition and ability to put together a well written and articulate piece of literature is pretty sloppy. I

dont dislike SK's, I actually think the Devs need to give them much more utility, purpose and identity, I hope putting

this out there does not have a negative consequence on my class via a nerf, but rather might serve to help balance

what now is a pretty sad SK class. I take pride in my Paladin, its the only class I play. Why play another? No

reason to. I can do more then any other class. And Ill gladly put my money where my mouth is. So that leaves one

final area we havent discussed yet. PVP. Im on the Rathe. Any SK wanna find out..shoot me a tell. I will hand you

back your ***, then come to this forum and post it right here.

P.S. Paladins stop listening to all the ******** about what you cant do. YOU CAN DO IT..And better.

Oh i think you said i was cherry picking my posts and favoring undead encounters.in response to that..here ya go.

/GU Angry Alfred in 417s, 9866k @23659 / Linden + pets 9866k@(23659 in 417s) [100%]
/GU Mulchmother in 260s, 11050k @42502 / ***** 5809k@(22782 in 255s) [52.57%] / Linden + pets

GU Pria the Penitent in 75s, 13898k @185307 / #1 Linden 5969k@(91835 in 65s) [42.95%]

I can go back and pull plenty more, but it takes forever. And there is nothing left to prove. Oh swapping out healing merc for DPS merc is something unique for the paladin class, in terms of tanking without a healer in zones like combine. So Add that to our DPS. it would otherwise re filled by a healer.

Oh, I am always looking for ways to improve my game, to become better. If any Paladin happens to have any suggestions that would improve my game, please post or send me a message. Make me better.

Edited, Oct 1st 2015 1:59am by RatheLinden

Edited, Oct 1st 2015 2:07am by RatheLinden

Edited, Oct 1st 2015 2:12am by RatheLinden

Edited, Oct 1st 2015 2:27am by RatheLinden

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#35 Oct 01 2015 at 4:15 AM Rating: Decent

__DEL__1672618586850

Scholar

45 posts

I would say, "End result". Look at the end result. How does the class evolve and develop. What is the potential at end game? How do other end game players feel about the direction of the class they are playing? And are they satisfied? Or just go to the daybreak forums and goto class discussion / tanks / read the thread, "How does the Devs see the SK class?". That will say it all...They are all rage quiting, complaining, whining, about what Warriors have, what Paladins have, what they don't have.
What you wont see, is Paladins doing that, or warriors. And they have good valid points for being pissed off. No argument there. Ill challenge you to find an SK that can put up a a legit DPS parse for a top Tier TDS named. Molo or solo. Can you? I cant.

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#38 Oct 01 2015 at 5:40 AM Rating: Good

snailish

4,580 posts

I think point of view is coming into play heavily in this discussion, which is fun.

Consider Lockjaw progression server, an informal census of the least-played classes: rogue, paladin, ranger, bard vs. the most played: magician, necromancer, druid. Only real surprise to me is the lack of rangers, but then remember that rangers are hard to play in original world and magicians are now the content kings of EQ (even in a throwback scenario that they weren't originally kings of).

Historically rogue is almost always bottom of the population barrel. Players that "get" rogue do awesome things with it. Few players get a rogue to that point. Paladins get rolled due to appeal/lore of the class but tend to not be a class a large number of people take to endgame, however they would certainly beat rogues. Some really good EQ players I have known tried paladin, got within striking distance of endgame and gave up due to hating the stun usage mechanic and low dps.

If you factor out boxed characters (so "my one true main") paladin probably goes up in the rankings as I (anecdotally) have encountered a lot of people that keep an enchanter or such only as a box mule.
-----

as a side note, the official boards are a great place to find out what the vocal minority of any class is thinking. Daybreak boards are heavily skewed to a raider bias from my experience.

-----
perspective of the ancient history of original class development for SK vs. Paladin was simply: Paladin is more defensive. Paladin does best in group due to the stun aspect of the playstyle. Paladin has heals. Let's give paladin some flavor of extra damage against undead (something they ran with later on). SK was a defensive tank class. Does best in a group but could dabble with soloing due to recourses, dots and lifetaps increasing damage with some health kickback and the weak little pet which is like a persistent dot spell if you can keep it alive.

-----

Lastly, I think an SK geared and AAed to the level of RatheLinden's paladin would be an animal. What percentage of players match the level of "character completeness" you are describing?

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#39 Oct 01 2015 at 5:27 PM Rating: Decent

gbaji

Encyclopedia

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Linden. I get what you're saying, but I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. I'm not saying that Paladins "can't" fight anything but undead. I'm saying that, against live mobs, Paladins have the lowest dps of all melee classes in the game. Period. End of story. No one refutes this. So. In any situation where kill rate matters (which is most solo/molo sessions), Paladins have a disadvantage when fighting against any mobs other than undead mobs. You're talking as though every player magically wakes up one morning with a character with max level/AA and gear and then asks "what can I do that's fun/interesting with this class". Um... You have to get there. And getting there requires gaining experience. And along the way, you might want to do various tasks and quests and whatnot. You talk about lack of experience in TDS (and you are correct, myself and my guidmates have only really tipped out toes in that expansion). But your posts make it seem like you have no experience with anything other than TDS. There's a whole world out there where the specific encounters and mobs in TDS don't count, but have to be included when doing things like balancing classes.

You're also still obsessing over what class does best tanking tough mobs. But most of the game you're not fighting the toughest named mobs. Those parts count too. The spell lineup and tactics you outlined are a pretty extreme example of "use only when fighting the absolute toughest named mobs around". I'd never even contemplate that lineup for day to day play. It's massive overkill on the healing. I get that you were trying to show how well a paladin could handle extreme tank situations, but you missed that I wasn't talking about that. No one is. I'm talking about things like clearing large numbers of blue or even light blue mobs for exp/AA, with maybe an occasional named in there. And guess what? SKs beat us on that. Nearly every class beats us on that (unless we're fighting undead, in which case we maybe jump up to like 8th worst instead of 3rd).

I rattled off a whole set of cases where Paladins struggle and all you did in response was talk about the very situation's I, and everyone in this thread, has already acknowledged. Yes. Paladins can tank. We are the 2nd best raid target tank, and the best offtank in the game. No one is disputing this. We're saying that these things are offset by other areas where we don't shine, but other classes (like SKs), do. Devs have to balance the whole game, not just raiding. Because there really is a lot more to EQ than just raiding the top level current content. Arguably only about 5% of the entire player base is involved in that part of the game (and that may even be a high estimate on my part). I get that for you raiding is what matters, so you list off raid stats as proof of your point. But that's not the only thing the Devs have to consider.

I was so not talking about named mobs in my earlier post.

Edited, Oct 1st 2015 4:35pm by gbaji

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#40 Oct 01 2015 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good

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Ok. I understand now. I dont expect you to understand, because you haven't gotten there yet, but when you do, and those that have. they know exactly what I am saying. Extreme tank situations....Pulling 10 mobs on DH Missions with a wizzy merc, self healing, yeh I know about that. Light blues, VoA..gimme 30-40 no problem. Why am I in TDS zones? Because Ive completed the other zones they are trival, what is the point? If you knew TDS expansion you would not be marginalizing a Paladin Moloing in Combine, I stay in TDS, I prefer Arx and Combine, Brother Island, because it presents a challenge and i need power sources. Where else can I do and get the same challenge? The day will come when you see what I am saying and it will hit you, "Holy ****, Linden was right". I spend all my time in tds and gues what..Players arent moloing there, they are boxing. If you understood the speed, concentration and skill required to do that, you wouldn't even ask why am I in TDS zones.....Better yet...why is no one ever in those zones moloing or soloing, Because most players dont want to spend hours and hours dying and rebuffing to gain the skill set, Easier to make a box to duo with, and thats fine. ...Moloing/soloing mobs that have 14-15 million hitpoints is a challenge, it makes me a better player, and saves me from embarrassing my class on raids, because I have the skill set to handle whatever assignment is needed/. Oh i would imagine 5 percent of players achieve that success, probably less,, because most molo and dont have to.
Ill never make a box Dont need to if you have a Paladin.

As for you critiquing ,my Spell line up? when you arent even flagged for TDS, MY spell line up produced the result I wanted. I won! Unless you or another player have pulled off Combine molo encounter you have no right to question that. The audicity.

Edited, Oct 1st 2015 8:35pm by RatheLinden

Edited, Oct 1st 2015 8:47pm by RatheLinden

Edited, Oct 1st 2015 8:49pm by RatheLinden

Edited, Oct 1st 2015 8:50pm by RatheLinden

Edited, Oct 1st 2015 8:53pm by RatheLinden

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#42 Oct 01 2015 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent

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Gbaji. Look. Your commenting on a class you are not qualified to comment on. I'm sorry, your just not. by your positions and view of the paladin class, its clear you havent taken a paladin past level 100.

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#43 Oct 01 2015 at 10:10 PM Rating: Decent

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Wow. I am amazed, its almost as if we play a different game entirely. Swarming? Sure I can pull 40-50 mobs in Voa but why? its too simple. Armour of the inquisitor / First spire of holiness / Tower shield for proc heals / Healer merc and occasional burst healing, merc heals and beacon righteousness for AE taunt to keep initial assault off
healer merc. Im lost, completely lost! What is the purpose? its a simple algorithm. The loot is worthless and the exp is better farmed in Soloing DH Missions.I pop a lesson and get 80 AA's in 30 minutes and im good for 2 days unti.l i burn up Glyphs. Are you aware where the game currently is? Have you heard of Geomantic Power sources? They are the tank Power source, that I need to raid. 9000hp boost and 600 AC. It is the biggest boost in hps and AC ever in the game. And I burn through them about once every 2 weeks. So TDS zones are crucial to my AC and Hps. But to go on a raid without a Geomantic power source equipted would be shameful to any offtank / tank on a raid. No excuse not to have it. Also theres a healer Powersource I farm too, why? Because it improves my healing and adds 9k mana to my total pool so when my guild raids arx2 zones that require intensive mana consumption via burst heals, splashes, and group heals, I can give just that much more. by equipting Ocean Tear powersource, which tops my mana pool at 110k, once mana drops down, ill switch toi geomantic for tanking, mitigation. 9k mana boost is huge, again no excuse not to have it, but it drops in caverns of endless song, and being a pally, I can hunt it myself, I CAN farm both myself. SK not likely in Caverns, and 100 percent sure they cant in Combine.
I cant understand how you see it so differently. So when you mention swarming, it throws me off completely. Im discussing advantages paladins have because of so much utility, the biggest advantage paladins have right now, currently, as of TDS, is Utility. And the more utility a class has, requires a higher level of skill from the player. Who cares what or how many mobs an SK can swarm at level 60, ot 75, or 85.? I am not seeking to go down to those zones or seeking advancement, or advantage over players 20 or more levels lower. So comparing what an sk does at level 60 or 75 to current content is ,more then silly. The game is on a completely different level then that. Its as if we are speaking completely different languages.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2015 12:14am by RatheLinden

Edited, Oct 2nd 2015 12:30am by RatheLinden

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#44 Oct 02 2015 at 5:11 AM Rating: Excellent

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RatheLinden wrote:

...Im discussing advantages paladins have because of so much utility, the biggest advantage paladins have right now, currently, as of TDS, is Utility. And the more utility a class has, requires a higher level of skill from the player. Who cares what or how many mobs an SK can swarm at level 60, ot 75, or 85.? I am not seeking to go down to those zones or seeking advancement, or advantage over players 20 or more levels lower. So comparing what an sk does at level 60 or 75 to current content is ,more then silly. The game is on a completely different level then that. Its as if we are speaking completely different languages.

This still feels like a point of view disagreement to me (reading all the posts since my last post in this thread).

I said it differently before but I will try again: I don't think that RatheLinden the paladin is representative of the average paladin's skill/gear/build and therefore success.

I sincerely believe the average SK > the average Paladin in all but off-tanking and pure defensive situations (and that undead specialized slaying) at least into the level 90s. What have the devs done in the Darkened Sea? I have no idea. Maybe Paladin is the "flavour of the expansion" godmode class? If so expect the nerfhammer to hit hard next expac --or to get no love as other classes are rebalanced past paladin. The king utility class (being enchanter) has been on such a rollercoaster for years.

What can the average paladin do in today's endgame that the average mage cannot? On progression we've seen guilds of all mages (once they fixed harmtouch...).

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#45 Oct 02 2015 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent

gbaji

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RatheLinden wrote:

Gbaji. Look. Your commenting on a class you are not qualified to comment on. I'm sorry, your just not. by your positions and view of the paladin class, its clear you havent taken a paladin past level 100.

Lol. Um... How long have you been playing this game? I've been playing a paladin since the game started back in 1999. What I'm talking about is big picture perspective on class balance, that I don't think you see. I've seen classes wax and wane in power. It's a mistake to make absolute statements about what "is", because in a year or two or 5, that will be "what was", and what "is" will be completely different. You talk about me not playing a paladin past 100, but did you actually play your paladin up to 100? Or did you start out HA, and then have friends help zip you to the top and get you all the gear you needed? Because everything you have posted screams "new player with limited experience talking about how uber he is because the one character he's ever played excels at the one style of play he plays". Come back and talk when you've played a few more classes through a few more expansions and actually understand how the game works. It's not about details of gear, power sources, and spell/AA lineups. That's all transitory details. It's memorized stuff. As I keep trying to point out to you, there's a whole game world out there that you just aren't interacting with at all. And the majority of players play that game, not the one you are playing.

Remember when I had to teach you what Remorse for the Fallen did? Big clue that you never actually played your Paladin through all the levels right there. That's a spell no one could miss unless he just skipped level 75 entirely. So please don't try to pretend that you know more about the Paladin class than I do. You know more about raiding and gear grinding in TDS. That's nice, but that's only part of the game. I know vastly more than you do about every raid and gear location in the game prior to TDS, because I've raided and gear hunted in each of those level ranges. You obviously have not. I get that for you, the latest content is the whole game. But for most of the player base, that's not the case. So when talking about class balance, we have to look at all of the players, not just the small percentage that play just like you do.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2015 3:32pm by gbaji

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#46 Oct 02 2015 at 6:17 PM Rating: Default

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gbaji wrote:

RatheLinden wrote:

Gbaji. Look. Your commenting on a class you are not qualified to comment on. I'm sorry, your just not. by your positions and view of the paladin class, its clear you havent taken a paladin past level 100.

Lol. Um... How long have you been playing this game? I've been playing a paladin since the game started back in 1999. What I'm talking about is big picture perspective on class balance,
Edited, Oct 2nd 2015 3:32pm by gbaji

572 /played, Feb, 2001. I began my days 8 months before luclin was released, before pally stuns were nerfed and chains was the best thing in the game in group content. I started the game when Paladins were always winning the PVP events. My first raid was in fear plane, which almost made me rage quit because it was a 4 hours CR operation, a baptism by fire. Is that what you do when you cant answer a question, instead of tapping out, you hurl insults. I dont care how long you played the game, how many posts you have made. You are not qualified when it comes to the Paladin Class at the end game level, because you have no experience, so I ask you again. "what makes you think your qualified to critique my spell line and strategy on a combine Molo that probably no other Paladin has accomplished? Can you find anyone that has successfully moloed that? If someone has, contact me private message so we can discuss details, tips, and share information. And please, critique my spell line up and tell me what can be improved, or what has worked for you. I cant find any information on Soloing or moloing for TDS teir 2 and 3 zones.
Like you said, Gbaji, What you did in the past, is the past, its not relevant to current game. Its old news. to suggest my paladin is a heroic, again, when you cant respond and are called on your ********* you then resort to the old, "Ebay, heroic, childish crap". I am in a reputable guild that is the oldest raiding guild on the Rath server. I stick to TDS zones, and cotf. I spend much time in Chapter house. COTF, and TDS. TDS is the only expansion that presents me with the ability to build on my game. why would I go anywhere else, can you answer that? To smell the roses, to do what exactly? Can you answer that..Your a "Has-been" at best. Im pwning zones that you do not have the skill set to last more then 3-4 seconds on engage. Go away.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2015 8:21pm by RatheLinden

Edited, Oct 2nd 2015 8:48pm by RatheLinden

Edited, Oct 2nd 2015 8:52pm by RatheLinden

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#47 Oct 02 2015 at 6:32 PM Rating: Default

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snailish, Goblin in Disguise wrote:

[quote=RatheLinden]
What can the average paladin do in today's endgame that the average mage cannot? On progression we've seen guilds of all mages (once they fixed harmtouch...).

Ok.Operative word, "Average". An average Paladin has no advantage over an average Mage. No argument. However, IMO, a player can excel and build the skills needed to do things that an equally skilled Mage, cannot do, because of its straight forward DPS class.it doesnt have the utility to improvise and be creative the way paladins can. So I guess I could say, an average Paladin does have one thing over a mage. More potential.

Im not trying to be a prick, when it comes to Gbaji. But when I see someone make a false statement about my class, especially when they comment about what my class can and cant do in zones they have never been in before, then have the audicity to suggest my spell line up is poor for that specific situation. that was disrespectful to all the days, and countless hours I spent dying and running back, rebuffing, dying, over and over, experimenting with different tactics until i put together a winning line up. Then somehow, without being in that zone EVER, Gbaji wants to correct my line-up? LOL

Edited, Oct 2nd 2015 8:43pm by RatheLinden

Edited, Oct 2nd 2015 9:09pm by RatheLinden

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#48 Oct 03 2015 at 12:23 AM Rating: Excellent

gbaji

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RatheLinden wrote:

gbaji wrote:

RatheLinden wrote:

Gbaji. Look. Your commenting on a class you are not qualified to comment on. I'm sorry, your just not. by your positions and view of the paladin class, its clear you havent taken a paladin past level 100.

Lol. Um... How long have you been playing this game? I've been playing a paladin since the game started back in 1999. What I'm talking about is big picture perspective on class balance,

Is that what you do when you cant answer a question, instead of tapping out, you hurl insults.

Perhaps take a look in the mirror? I was more than happy to keep this civil until you started attacking my qualifications to even comment on the subject at hand. So yeah, when faced with that, I'm going to comment back about things like you not knowing what a really significant level 75 spell does. I'm going to comment that you seem incredibly focused just on the end game raid game, but seem to have glaring gaps in your knowledge about everything else. And yes, I'm going to comment that this is the kind of mindset that normally screams "guy who was power leveled and/or guild raided past most content or even purchased the character and has done nothing but play the end game with it".

If that's not the case, then I apologize. But I can only react to what I see, and what I've seen of your posts here so far indicates one of those things. I'm still frankly confounded by how you could have missed that spell, and little details like that tend to stick in my mind. It would be like someone claiming to have played a cleric since game start, but not knowing what CH is. Worse, because the spell in question actually still has great utility today. Add in comments about not playing any other characters? Playing exclusively in top zones because you see no reason to waste time anywhere else?

Quote:

You are not qualified when it comes to the Paladin Class at the end game level, because you have no experience, so I ask you again. "what makes you think your qualified to critique my spell line and strategy on a combine Molo that probably no other Paladin has accomplished?

I think you are still missing my point. I'm not critiquing the spell line up and strategy for moloing those specific mobs. What I'm saying is that you are placing far far far more weight on that than most players in the game do. I'm sure that's a great spell line up and strategy for doing what you're doing. But I don't see how that in any was constitutes a response to what I posted. I was talking about all the various things characters do that don't require maxed out tanking abilities, and that you weren't taking those into account when discussing class balance, and you respond by going into great detail about how you can tank better than a SK can. Um.. No one was debating that. I've said this like 5 times now, but every single time you keep saying "But we're better at tanking!!!". Yes. I know that. But are we better at those other things that I (and some others) have mentioned?

I'll also point that I absolutely have experience at the "end game level". Just not the current end game level. Um... I learned long ago, that it's just not that important or impressive. They're just numbers on a computer screen. Hence why I don't obsess over it.

Quote:

Can you find anyone that has successfully moloed that? If someone has, contact me private message so we can discuss details, tips, and share information. And please, critique my spell line up and tell me what can be improved, or what has worked for you. I cant find any information on Soloing or moloing for TDS teir 2 and 3 zones.

Again, that's not the point I was making. I'm saying that moloing TDS tier 2/3 mobs isn't the sole determinant of class balance. It's one (arguably very small) component of class balance. Most players don't judge moloing ability based on the toughest single mobs they can tackle. They judge it by kill rate over time on less tough mobs. Specifically, how fast they can gain exp/AA by grinding. Being able to max out a spell lineup and tactics to take out a really tough named doesn't do that. It's the opposite of what you do if you want to gain exp/AA. And even the gear gains are questionable, since those mobs tend to have no-drop loot, while less powerful mobs tend to have attunable/sellable stuff. You laughed at SKs swarming in grounds, but if they're able to gain as much or more exp/hour doing that and gather up more plat in sellable stuff doing that, then who should be laughing?

It's not all about your chosen style of play. That's all I'm trying to say here. Different people enjoy doing different things. You may enjoy pushing the envelope in terms of single targets you can take out. A SK may enjoy pushing the envelope in terms of how many less powerful mobs he can take out at one time. Different play styles. Different objectives. And yes, different balance issues. Saying one is inherently "better" than the other speaks to a limited viewpoint on your part.

Quote:

Like you said, Gbaji, What you did in the past, is the past, its not relevant to current game. Its old news. to suggest my paladin is a heroic, again, when you cant respond and are called on your ********* you then resort to the old, "Ebay, heroic, childish crap".

What was I unable to respond to? I'm not sure why you seem to want to turn this into some kind of competition. You talked about being able to tank tough mobs. I said "that's not the only measure of a class". You responded by repeating several times, with every increasing detail, your exploits defeating tough mobs. I have said several times that I don't refute what you are saying, I just disagree with the weight you are placing on it.

I'm honestly at a loss how to get through to you on this point. It's like talking about what it means to be an athlete, and someone says "I can bench press more than anyone else". I might respond by saying that how much weight you can lift isn't the only measure of an athlete. We might look at how fast they can run, or how high they can jump, how coordinated they are, etc. But if that person just keep responding with "But I can lift more weight, so I'm the best!", I can't help but think he's not seeing the big picture.

Quote:

I am in a reputable guild that is the oldest raiding guild on the Rath server. I stick to TDS zones, and cotf. I spend much time in Chapter house. COTF, and TDS. TDS is the only expansion that presents me with the ability to build on my game. why would I go anywhere else, can you answer that? To smell the roses, to do what exactly? Can you answer that..Your a "Has-been" at best. Im pwning zones that you do not have the skill set to last more then 3-4 seconds on engage. Go away.

Lol. Well, it's a good thing that I'm the one hurling insults here. I have never claimed to be a top raid player. And frankly I don't care to be one. It's just not a priority to me. The point I think you're missing is that most players are more like me than are like you. Most players don't play the top content, and frankly aren't bothered by it. But to say that those players aren't qualified to comment about the class they play because of this? Um.. Again. There's more to the game than just raiding top level mobs.

Sorry if I touched a nerve there, but maybe you just need a bit broader perspective. I don't care that you can defeat those mobs molo. I really don't. It doesn't impress me one bit. The parse numbers you keep posting? Don't matter to me. And don't to probably 85% or more of the EQ player base. What you think is monumentally important just doesn't matter to most people. And the sooner you figure that out the sooner you'll maybe understand why other people chose to do things differently than you do. And you might just stop belittling people for not placing the same weight on the stuff you care about.

The devs have to balance classes based on all of the players of the game, not just you. That's the message I'm trying to get through to you. You keep insisting that since you play a certain way, and do certain things, that this is all that matters. Well. It isn't. It's just one tiny thing in a long list of things that matter to class balance. It's just that I can't seem to get this through to you, because every time I say this, you respond by just posting more data about the toughness of mobs you can molo. That's great, but you're missing the point.

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#49 Oct 03 2015 at 12:38 AM Rating: Excellent

gbaji

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RatheLinden wrote:

snailish, Goblin in Disguise wrote:

What can the average paladin do in today's endgame that the average mage cannot? On progression we've seen guilds of all mages (once they fixed harmtouch...).

Ok.Operative word, "Average". An average Paladin has no advantage over an average Mage. No argument. However, IMO, a player can excel and build the skills needed to do things that an equally skilled Mage, cannot do, because of its straight forward DPS class.it doesnt have the utility to improvise and be creative the way paladins can. So I guess I could say, an average Paladin does have one thing over a mage. More potential.

I'm reasonably certain a top level/geared mage would disagree with you. What Snailish was trying to point out is that everything else being equal, all classes have some things that they excel at. You're dismissing those things because they aren't the same things that Paladin's excel at. But that's completely circular reasoning. A mage would very well prioritize different things as being important to him, because that's what he plays, and that's what he likes to do. You don't get to tell him what he should care about. He gets to decide that.

Quote:

Im not trying to be a prick, when it comes to Gbaji. But when I see someone make a false statement about my class, especially when they comment about what my class can and cant do in zones they have never been in before, then have the audicity to suggest my spell line up is poor for that specific situation. that was disrespectful to all the days, and countless hours I spent dying and running back, rebuffing, dying, over and over, experimenting with different tactics until i put together a winning line up. Then somehow, without being in that zone EVER, Gbaji wants to correct my line-up? LOL

What false statements did I make about Paladins? I never said your spell lineup was poor for that situation. I said it was optimized for massive healing, and would be inefficient for anything other than taking out the toughest mobs. Which it is. Your problem is that you are judging the Paladin class solely on its ability to handle just those types of fights. I'm not disagreeing that Paladins are really good at that. Heck. I've said the same thing many times on this forum, that one of the cool things about the Paladin class is that we can take out pretty much any tough mob given enough time, because our self healing plus a healer merc makes us as close to unkillable to mob damage as possible. As long as we can manage mana, we can win. So I'm not disagreeing with the facts you are stating. I'm just saying that's not the only thing people find enjoyable in this game. That may be what *you* like doing the most, but that's just you. I certainly don't bother doing that. To me, that's far too much stress, time, and trouble for very little reward. By your own admission, you're spending tons of time dying, getting rebuffed, and then trying again, and again, and again to kill these mobs. Why? What do you really get for it? You're expending as many resources doing this as you gain from it. That may be what you enjoy, but it's not what I and most other players enjoy, so judging our entire class, and the entire context of class balance by that one metric just seems absurd to me.

I think the difference is that I want to actually have fun playing this game. I avoid high risk, low reward situations. For someone who wants the thrill of finally managing to take out that one super tough opponent molo, so he can brag about doing it, that may be great. For me? I just don't put weight on it. Go up to 1000 random people on the street and say "I moloed X mob with my paladin in EQ", and they'll look at you like you're crazy. It's just not that important in the big picture. Even among other EQ players, most would be like "why bother?". They'll just take those same mobs out with a group, many more times, and with far fewer deaths and time spent, and get the same gear/reward. Again, maybe it's a personal measuring stick you use, and frankly I don't have any problem with you doing that. If that's what you like to do, then that's your choice and there's nothing wrong with it. I just have an issue with you insisting that everyone else must place the same weight on that. We don't.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2015 11:38pm by gbaji

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#50 Oct 03 2015 at 3:14 AM Rating: Default

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gbaji wrote:

[quote=RatheLinden][quote=snailish, Goblin in Disguise]
They'll just take those same mobs out with a group, many more times, and with far fewer deaths and time spent, and get the same gear/reward. Again, maybe it's a personal measuring stick you use, and frankly I don't have any problem with you doing that. If that's what you like to do, then that's your choice and there's nothing wrong with it. I just have an issue with you insisting that everyone else must place the same weight on that. We don't.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2015 11:38pm by gbaji

Ahh...no..They wont...I can farm Brother Island, with a wizzy merc and do Alfred / lidia / and mulchmother in one rotation without any death, its trivial. And I dont care if you have a problem with me doing that or not, you cant help me advance my game, I can help you advance yours. Can you tell me one thing, just one thing that can advance me as a Paladin? No, you cant. Just based on your posts and your view overall, I can school you plenty. As for the "I just have an issue with you insisting that everyone else must place the same weight on that. We don't." Since when do you speak on behalf of the EQ community? You dont.
why waste time rattling about old sebilis farming days or lower guk, CT, veksar, etc, been there, done that, was load sof, Felspin in SG, good times, a different game. Yet you keep wanting me to go back and prove something of my early days playing. Nothing to gain from that. it was simple, 3 stuns on independent timers made us the best tanks at the time. eventually they came out and added more stun spells retroactive to level 1, i laugh now thinking bout how silly i must have been running around with 5 stun spells memmed. for top aggro, until i think PoP when stuns got nerfed on hate, and basically lost the ability to chain stun or pacify pull until level 95, level 95 is when the paladin class developed, before that, from 70-90 I would describe as the identity crisis era for the paladin. Stuns got nerfed, 2 stuns on 2 timers, and the next pacify spell would not come until level 95ish. If you still wanna know, log on the server and ask in general, plenty of folks ive been playing with for over 13-14 years.
Are we done now?

Edited, Oct 3rd 2015 5:33am by RatheLinden

Edited, Oct 3rd 2015 5:34am by RatheLinden

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#51 Oct 03 2015 at 7:50 AM Rating: Excellent

Sippin

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3,014 posts

True dat it's kinda pointless to compare classes based on what they USED to be able to do. All the classes have evolved (whether UP or DOWN, is arguable) over the many years this game has been live. The classes I play, I can remember play styles in the past which would make no sense today and the abilities that have been taken away, but also some important ones added, make a current 105 of any class quite a different plaything than the same toon at 60 or 75 or even 90 years ago.

Look how wizards have had manaburn and kiting nerfed over the years. Yet druids get fade and 5-target aoe's, which brings back quad/quint-kiting, something that was their bread-and-butter in the early years but then was nerfed entirely away just by EQ not releasing upgrades to their quad aoe spells.

Analogous changes have affected every class.

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Sippin 115 DRU **** Firiona Vie ****Agnarr
FV: 115 WAR ENC CLE MAG WIZ SHD SHM Master Alchemist ROG Master Tinkerer & Poison-Maker
Master Artisan (300+) * Baker * Brewer * Fletcher * Jeweler * Potter * Researcher * Smith * Tailor
Agnarr: 65 DRU ENC SHD MAG CLE ROG WIZ BRD WAR

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Necessary classes for raidsFollow