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Recent Account Bannes for HackingFollow

#52 May 02 2008 at 7:04 PM Rating: Decent
25 posts
Well, I feel for you I am a three boxer and they decided to ban my cleric and my shaman for ghost killing in the guardian, btw both my toons died in the guardian and the grp I was in took 6 hrs to as they put get in and clear the zone. We never had a boss we wiped in the end and we didnt even clear the zone because we invised past mobs.
They have not given me any evidence but i get the same response from GM Kihaoinhe "your everquest account has been banned for the excessive use of exploitive third party programs to cheat within the game."
I have a TL 56 dualcore with a nvidia 7950 videocard. I feel your frustration completely as they have not lifted my bann but chose to update my petition as solved with no response.
I use magelo and wineq and too my knowledge they are legal programs to use with everquest.
Its unfortunate that you play a game for 7 years trying to follow the rules and you buy a new computer so you dont lag out and are labeled a Hack
#53 May 02 2008 at 9:32 PM Rating: Default
soe should never ban anyone for grouping with a hacker. unless there's chat text proving the group mates knew about it.

it's not easy for new, nor experianced players to know someone is cheating.
if group mates are just sitting there while the one guy is doing all the killing and easily , then banning could be ok but not without a gm saying something in game.

i had a GM show up in a dungeon i was in beside shadowhaven it think. he asked what we were doing. "we being me 5 boxing" i told him i was 3 boxing one computer and 2 boxing another. using 3-4 characters to do the killing and the other 1-2 to heal when needed. he asked why. i said look at the time 2am weekday and less then 10 folks in POK. no-one to group with at level 20-30. so i box a lone.

i told him i wasn't macroing , and i could send him a live photo of him and my 5 characters , just take a pic of the 2 computers he said he belivedme. but had a petition that someone was macroing here.

i told him no need to macro. i have lvl 65 enc 51 cleric 50 druid i log in to buff my characters and rez when needed

he watched me play for a few min and left or went invis not sure. but i can see how others would think one is using a program to macro. or do these ghost killing or other odd things i heard about in the past.

but to get banned for grouping and activly fighting, how can they assume you'd know others in your group are cheaters? and to take away claimed LON items in a roll back. is 100% wrong those cost real money. and are owned items by the user not SOE.

about 5 months ago i bought a box of cards for lon and then bought loot cards mounts off ebay. i think $500.00 worth of LON stuff in total. $300 of the loot cards are claimed. i have 4 mounts and many other items. i enjoy on my accounts. i have 8 accounts 5 i play. although i haven't played since NOV 12th or when ever the new expansion came out, i bought it for the accounts and quite. just to try other games and save a bit of money.

with all those items that cost realy money. if i start playing or reactivae the accounts just to find them banned or get banned soon cus i grouped with a cheater. i would lawyer up fast. and it it workded, never group again. i'dbox only and if that didn't get my items and accounts back. i would get new accounts and cheat the **** our of he games and power lvl . plat farm do what ever i had to quickly and sell on ebay or other sites to get my money value back.

i know 2 wrongs don't make a right. but SOE needs to check things better and they should contact in game and emails and phone calls befor doing anything. if i got contacted about the cheating and i knew it couldn't be me. and they said a group mate may be the cus i'd just stop grouping or find guilds who work hard on making sure no cheaters are in.

BUT the whole point is sercure the game better. spend some money and make it impossible to hack. hire MAC apple programers. hire bill gates do something instead of banning 50% cheaters and 50% inocents

(sorry if spelling and gramer is bad it's late. and i've noticed my keyboard has missed many letters i hit. over using this keyboard. need new one soon)

hope you get your stuff back, and i hope my stuff is all there when i come back some day
____________________________
To play well with others is to NOT GET THEM KILLED

5x eve online (Currently playing 2 accounts)
1x darkfall "worse game ever"
8x EQ 1 accounts char's lvl 30-52 7 years (3 accounts active)2nd fav
6x Asheron's call lvl 40-99 one lvl 132 (FAV GAME ALL TIME)
2 EQ 2
3 Horizons
3 WOW
3 DAOC
1 D&D online
4 FFXI
2 vanguard
4 anarchy
2 SWG
1 lineage 2
2 AOC
1 LOTRO
1 City of H / V
beta's AC2,lotro,eq2,aoc, lineage 2, darkfall, crimecraft, fallen earth, aion, Jade Dynasty
#54 May 02 2008 at 9:55 PM Rating: Default
i would like to ask what operating system are you using and what programs are on while you play. maybe there's a pattern to these few bannings of non-cheaters

vista may have odd programs running in the background that soe is picking up as cheating when there just anti- hacking vista network programs. or something

i use vista. and had about 5 anti-virus,spyware,ad-ware etc. programs running on my computer. i killed all but one of them. to many of those slow it down and run in background.

not sure if this stuff is possible. but i wish there was a forum for bannd players. just so we could see if there's a pattern. and list known cheaters not to group with and . help those of us not yet banned, keep from getting banned.
____________________________
To play well with others is to NOT GET THEM KILLED

5x eve online (Currently playing 2 accounts)
1x darkfall "worse game ever"
8x EQ 1 accounts char's lvl 30-52 7 years (3 accounts active)2nd fav
6x Asheron's call lvl 40-99 one lvl 132 (FAV GAME ALL TIME)
2 EQ 2
3 Horizons
3 WOW
3 DAOC
1 D&D online
4 FFXI
2 vanguard
4 anarchy
2 SWG
1 lineage 2
2 AOC
1 LOTRO
1 City of H / V
beta's AC2,lotro,eq2,aoc, lineage 2, darkfall, crimecraft, fallen earth, aion, Jade Dynasty
#55 May 03 2008 at 2:53 AM Rating: Decent
25 posts
well, When I posted I had one acct left that I was playing, As soon as I logged off Saturday morning at 4:56 am I thought to log back in and say something to a guildie. Well i was greeted with your acct is closed call customer service. So now I miss yet another weekend of raids with my guild. I now cannot petition because I cant log into the account. I was told on 19 april I was definitely cheating. Well I spent 6 hrs in the guardian and died a few times we invised past mobs. And we killed seeinvis. Yes I have seen many strange pathing issues and no SOE never does anything about it,"thats what the mobs are supposed to do" so I don't make bug reports when a MOB is faded on a pull and it "SHADOW STEPS" ON TOP OF MY CAMP, I either win the battle or I loose, I use hot keys I don't use macros. As far as known problems, or exploits, I have no idea what the known problems or exploits are. In Crystallos the pathing is Crazy, the pathing in the S.H.I.P. is crazy the pathing in MMM is crazy the pathing with the Golems and such to get the Crystalllos key was crazy aggro radius and and spawns, in almost every zone I have played pathing has been weird at one time or another, I don't report such things because I just figured that was the way they programed it. I am not a programmer but I have played EQ for over 7 years and I am sad to say they have basically taken my accts away and I have no recourse, it seems. One acct has 21 months left on the subscription the other two have 6 months left on the 2 year subscription.
You all can tell me I am lying but I actually thought I was doing well or I thought I had my characters almost to where I wanted them I have maxed my aas almost completely (except in trade skill stuff)had my damage mitigation modifiers in my gear
Then SOE comes in and says you are a hacker, you are a cheat: when I have done nothing wrong and they shut down My Paid for accounts. What recourse do I have? I can't petition because the accts are closed and I can't log into them (NONE)
I use a AMD TL-56 with nvidia 7950 video card and a Pentium 4 - 2.6 with and x1600 8x agp 512 memory on both video cards I use windows XP pro on the AMD and xp home on the Pentium any suggestions to yet another delema would be appreciated.
And BTW The same GM flagged my accts that flagged Polleys'
I hope it doesn't happen to anyone else because it doesn't feel good at all.Spend money to upgrade your computer so SOE can call you a cheat.

Edited, May 3rd 2008 7:09am by rmahnee

Edited, May 3rd 2008 7:25am by rmahnee

Edited, May 3rd 2008 8:11am by rmahnee
#56 May 03 2008 at 3:33 PM Rating: Default
26 posts
I was pretty surprised to see this thread still active. And I'm sorry to see that this happening to more people. I haven't since this happened because I didn't want what happened to rmahnee, to happen to me. The fact that it happened to anyone is ridiculous! All I can suggest is for you to call Customer support and ask them what they think you should do. You can make an in game petition on the eq support website, if the account is banned you can still log in to make a petition, however if the account is closed, thats where id just call them.

As far as dealing with Sony on this, alot of people just get mad and have no tact, I on the other hand tried being overly polite, it seems that no matter how you act, you still get the same half ass'd results. So good luck to you, I really hope you get it worked out!

Polley
#57 May 03 2008 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
soe should never ban anyone for grouping with a hacker. unless there's chat text proving the group mates knew about it.

it's not easy for new, nor experianced players to know someone is cheating.

Bans by association are only given in cases such as when someone zones in to anguish with everything dead and only one other person in zone and loots it all. They -aren't- given for situations where it's a mostly legit group.

Quote:
i would like to ask what operating system are you using and what programs are on while you play. maybe there's a pattern to these few bannings of non-cheaters

vista may have odd programs running in the background that soe is picking up as cheating when there just anti- hacking vista network programs. or something

There is 100% no way that anything but ghostkilling is getting picked up as ghostkilling. Any apparent bans in error are either someone at SOE making a typo or other stupid mistake (like, accidentally banning "timmy" instead of "timym," or for some reason just the wrong account altogether) or the person lying.

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Groogle, no more admin?

nosir

Edited, May 3rd 2008 8:54pm by Groogle
#58 May 03 2008 at 10:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I was with Rmahnee the night in question in which SOE have banned him. We did a 6 hour crawl of the guardian. Now you dont know either of us, to you and Sony, we may be hackers on the make. But I was there for 6 hours, fighting, dying inching forward, and I know without doubt Rmahnee wasnt ghosting. Without doubt. I also know that no one in the group was hacking, they are all guildies, and we didnt end up with any prizes, just a bit of xp and a few deaths. I have petitioned to try and get Rmahnee and his boxes back, and have had(I thought) a very polite, hopeful response back, but I may be being too optimistic. If anyone has any constructive ideas on how to pursue this, or who to pursue it with, I'd be very grateful.

Edited, May 4th 2008 2:51am by Gloruk
#59 May 04 2008 at 3:25 AM Rating: Decent
I wasn't there when this occurred but Rmanee/Ozman are part of my fellowship. I still think there is something that the SOE screening software is picking up from newer comps that it is reading as a Hack when in fact it is not... Lord know the mess they have with EQ Players and are unable to fix it. We have seen the patch messes that require fixes. Now the screening software that they refuse to discuss with anyone is supposed to be flawless and certainly error free! Give me a break! I'm not that gullible to believe they have perfect scanning software that has no chance of making an error.

I think we need to look at all the people that have been banned that we know in our hearts are not cheaters and hacks and try and establish a common thread of what machines they are running and their configurations because I really think this is where the problem lies. Certainly SOE isn't going to do it so it's up to the community to ferret out this problem brought down on innocent people by the real hackers.

The only thing I could think to do was head for the top. Still no response but it went by snail mail. So I'm waiting..... Might not help but sure couldn't hurt. I wrote to:

Lyman Tuttle Account Administrator SOE.
Sony Online Entertainment LLC
8928 Terman Court
San Diego, California 92121



#60 May 04 2008 at 4:40 AM Rating: Default
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SOE is mistaking new technology for hacking? That's impossible.

Computer software developers use servers with technology far more powerful than home PCs.


Edited, May 4th 2008 12:49pm by Reyla
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#61 May 04 2008 at 8:38 AM Rating: Default
i'd like to ask. is it possible that some GM's are sick of sony and are just being A**holes banning folks randomly

i'm starting to think of two things mabe some out there are trying to kill the game getting folks banned and other quiting dropping the population to where someday the game will be gone.

the other thing i'm thinking is we all need a desktop video recorder. for when we play. if we ever get banned just copy the vids to a dvd disc of all your play time in question and mail it to them and have them point outwhere your cheating.

i left in november to retry wow and other games. i was plannning on coming back to eq soon. but with 8 accounts 5 of them i like active at same time. i don't want to come back till these bannings are 100% proper.

i'm in the conan beta now so at least i have something to do for now
____________________________
To play well with others is to NOT GET THEM KILLED

5x eve online (Currently playing 2 accounts)
1x darkfall "worse game ever"
8x EQ 1 accounts char's lvl 30-52 7 years (3 accounts active)2nd fav
6x Asheron's call lvl 40-99 one lvl 132 (FAV GAME ALL TIME)
2 EQ 2
3 Horizons
3 WOW
3 DAOC
1 D&D online
4 FFXI
2 vanguard
4 anarchy
2 SWG
1 lineage 2
2 AOC
1 LOTRO
1 City of H / V
beta's AC2,lotro,eq2,aoc, lineage 2, darkfall, crimecraft, fallen earth, aion, Jade Dynasty
#62 May 05 2008 at 5:53 AM Rating: Default
26 posts
Interesting theory Ltcommander. But I really don't that these banns are some conspiracy to hurt Sony. From what I understand he ability to hack EQ in the past has been pretty limited, not to say that people weren't doing it, but it was a little harder. The recent surge in hackers and exploiters has Sony really scared, they don't know how the programs work and there are so many new ones that they cant pinpoint whats going on.

If I were trying to cheat at something, I would try to make it undetectable, for instance, masking the cheat so that it looked like something normal. So I would guess that the hacks and exploits being used against Sony are being masked or hidden within something else...what could that something else be? I haven't the slightest clue. But I'll bet that this "mystery process" is why people are appearing as using hacks, when they are not.

You mentioned comparing systems to see if there were any similarities that could be causing it. To tell the truth i have an old, fairly slow system. I'm running Windows XP home edition with a pentium 4 2.8G and 504MB or ram.

Keep us posted on that letter you wrote to the accounts exec at Sony, I'm curious to see how they give you the runaround this time...


Polley
#63 May 05 2008 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Interesting theory Ltcommander. But I really don't that these banns are some conspiracy to hurt Sony. From what I understand he ability to hack EQ in the past has been pretty limited, not to say that people weren't doing it, but it was a little harder. The recent surge in hackers and exploiters has Sony really scared, they don't know how the programs work and there are so many new ones that they cant pinpoint whats going on.

If I were trying to cheat at something, I would try to make it undetectable, for instance, masking the cheat so that it looked like something normal. So I would guess that the hacks and exploits being used against Sony are being masked or hidden within something else...what could that something else be? I haven't the slightest clue. But I'll bet that this "mystery process" is why people are appearing as using hacks, when they are not.

You mentioned comparing systems to see if there were any similarities that could be causing it. To tell the truth i have an old, fairly slow system. I'm running Windows XP home edition with a pentium 4 2.8G and 504MB or ram.

They know 100% exactly what is going on, and there have only been two major hacks. Both of these are extremely easy to track once they decided they wanted to do so, and there is absolutely no way that anything else anyone could possibly do would show up as either of them. Both of them involved packet editing, and sending packets that no legitimate program would send to SOE.
#64 May 06 2008 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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They know 100% exactly what is going on, and there have only been two major hacks. Both of these are extremely easy to track once they decided they wanted to do so, and there is absolutely no way that anything else anyone could possibly do would show up as either of them. Both of them involved packet editing, and sending packets that no legitimate program would send to SOE.


I am not trying to be argumentative Groogle, but both of these users sound plausable enough, and this has created doubt in my mind.

I myself have seen my computer do stupid stuff that would easily look like i was hacking, as i mentioned with the run bug i occasionally experience. I bug it each time and reboot, but fear someone may see that and think i am cheating.

If both of these come from the same GM who is to say that this GM is not performing due diligance when researching a supposed hacker, and just going straight to the ban stick because he wants to be lazy?

If the packets are getting tweaked by the client, and that is what is creating the exploit, isn't it possible that a rare hardware and/or driver issue and/or software issue(or all 3) could be creating the appearance of the hack? Without digging into it, it could seem on the surface to be an exploit, so the GM bans them, even though these two people could be the rare exception that proves the rule.

Just my 2cp.

Edited for clarity, cause it has been a long day at work and my brain is tired.

Edited, May 6th 2008 3:26pm by kasandra
#65 May 06 2008 at 4:44 PM Rating: Good
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Groogle wrote:
They know 100% exactly what is going on, and there have only been two major hacks. Both of these are extremely easy to track once they decided they wanted to do so, and there is absolutely no way that anything else anyone could possibly do would show up as either of them. Both of them involved packet editing, and sending packets that no legitimate program would send to SOE.



This really depends on how they're flagging the hacks though. Packet editing is tricky stuff, and the variations of what can be done are virtually endless. Based on the reports of the GMs statements by polly, I suspect that SoE is simply flagging any malformed packets with specific header types. So a set of packets comes in with a header that indicates that this is positional data, but the data doesn't match correctly, they'll flag that. It's unlikely that they're scanning the data itself for specific patterns since that can vary wildly.

If that's the case, it's quite possible for someone to "accidentally" trigger such a flag, without ever doing anything wrong. Packets do get mangled during delivery sometimes, assembled in the wrong order, bits dropped, etc. Usually this is picked up at the network layer via simple checksum. However, occasionally, a packet will get mangled in such a way that only the data is affected (headers intact), and the data contains the same number of bits as it was sent with. This sort of thing would almost certainly trigger any ghosting flag in their system. It's rare, but when you think about the number of packets being sent by clients into their servers every day, it's a statistical certainty that it'll happen.


It's also possible that a virus/trojan on the client host can trigger this as well. Many hacks out there attempt to take advantage of buffer overflow exploits. It's arguably the most basic hack in the world. You send some data to a port on another computer. The program handling that port can only take X data at a time before its "blows its stack". You make sure the first X data is garbage, and then follow it with Y bits of instruction code. When the buffer overflows the remaining bits will be executed with the permissions of the process that just overflowed. For most port handlers, that's going to be an administrative process, giving you the ability to further hack the system.

Hacks of that sort can be automated (via the "zombie" cluster concept). What you do is create a program that checks network connections. Everytime you send data to another external host, it piggybacks the signal. A typical method to use would be to take whatever data was sent legitimately, and copy it multiple times to fill up to some buffer size, then follow it with code you want and send it. To a server that's properly patched, this will come in as a malformed packet. To someone looking at particular types of data, it'll look almost *exactly* like ghosting since it's the same positional (or whatever) data, but it's going to appear "shuffled around" (cause it's randomly repeating whatever data was sent legitimately).


I could probably think of about a dozen different things that could cause a data stream to arrive from an EQ client to an SOE server that would look on the surface like an attempt to ghost that have nothing to do with actually ghosting. Like you said, ghosting is simply the client sending legitimate packets with the correct application headers, but with wrong information in the data. Any such packet with data that isn't "correct" with regard to the server's records will be virtually indistinguishable from an attempt to ghost. The only way to be sure is if you actually had someone who knew which bits of the data meant what and could determine that the exact bits that were "wrong" were wrong in a way that would make the client appear to be in the wrong spot to the server and not just "randomly wrong".

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the average GM does not have the skill to make that determination. Heck. I'm betting almost no one does. Because you'd have to compare what the data is supposed to be to what it actually is, and know not only which bits are significant, but in what way they are significant. Does the fact that this set of 6 bits are wrong indicate random data? Or would those 6 bits make the server react in a way that would help the client in some way? That's incredibly hard to tell, and would be virtually impossible to automate. The best you can do is flag any set of clearly "wrong" data...
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#66 May 06 2008 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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Some SOE admin wrote:

2-28 Takish Ruins - About a thousand lines of confirmed "hacking" client.
Lifestone of Spring
Indium Ore
Lifestone of Summer
Lifestone of Winter
Lifestone of Autumn

3-17 Lower Guk - About 18,121 lines of confirmed "hacking" client
Short Sword of the Ykesha
An Executioners Axe
Skull-shaped Barbute
Executioners Hood



Just to be clear about what I was saying. The two bits I bolded are what indicate to me how they're flagging this, and why this can be incorrectly flagged. Based on those statements, it really does look like if they see a stream of "gibberish", they're interpreting that as "hacking code" and flagging the account.

Hell. Line noise can cause what appears to be "a thousand lines of hacking client". Clearly, they aren't looking at whether this errant data benefited her (cause I can't see how it did), but only that there were "lines of code" that came in from her host during play that were not legitimate data.
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#67 May 07 2008 at 12:17 AM Rating: Good
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They aren't flagging any and all malformed packets, they are looking for one specific packet that was being exploited to trigger attacks with essentially no delay. It used to be used the packet used to trigger a legitimate intimidation, but intimidation has used a completely different packet for some time. The packet that was being used in this is not used in any portion of the legit eq client at this point -- and is not similar enough to anything used in the eq client that a couple bit corruptions would trigger it. It would take header corruption and quite a number of bit corruptions to transform an innocent packet in to a noninnocent packet.

It is literally about as likely as trying to attack a large rat and accidentally shouting "I AM A PACKET HACKER, PLEASE BAN ME."

It is possible someone was a Richard and wrote essentially a virus to spam the packets in question with no visible effect to the client I suppose -- but that'd be really out there. I don't really have any sources to back this up, but I would be surprised if there were more than thirty or forty people capable of doing so. It would have taken really **** off the utterly wrong person. A non-targeted approach would see a lot more people effected. I find sony making a stupid booboo a lot more likely than this.

They aren't doing this by looking at weird movement packets -- though they do log those (and thus log warps, etc) they don't break them out 99.9% of the time, and if they had would have busted these guys for warping, not ghosting.

Since they are looking for one very specific thing and not just a malformed packet, it would be pretty shocking if this were data corruption or something else weird inside the eq client.



Edited, May 7th 2008 4:18am by Groogle
#68 May 07 2008 at 1:24 AM Rating: Default
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So as long as this has been going on it seems like everybody has been reluctant to explain exactly what is being seen as hacking and how they are interpreting it. The info, to me, seems rather sensitive so I can see why Sony was not willing to explain their detection methods.

THANK YOU so much Gbaji and Groogle, your two posts gave me more information on the subject than a month of searching on my own. I undersood enough of what you said to get the bigger picture. The only thing that comes to my mind is that you mentioned that the exploit they are looking for involved attacking with almost no delay. I play a Warrior and in the two instances that they said they saw me hacking, I was using my Furious Discipline often. Especially in Lower Guk. I keep a Fabled Tantors Tusk on me for using the disc to clear a lot of mobs at once. Id run from camp to camp and get the largest train I could pop the repost discipline and kill them. Could the large amount of DPS and reposts related to the disc have anything do do with it?
Just one question that popped into me head.

Thanks again for the info you two..it really did shed some light!


Polley
#69 May 07 2008 at 8:10 AM Rating: Decent
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I wonder if someone can provide some clarification on what exactly "ghosting" is. I was under the impression that "ghosting" was basically taking advantage of the LD mechanic of the game. Basically using a program to report a false LD to the server to move past certain areas/mobs or fighting a mob without it agroing or taking damage.

I am also curious as to the quality of the packets being sent during an affinity error with the AMD duel cores.

The reason I ask is that I have experienced the affinity errors and have noticed some odd things between the server reporting to the client and the client not responding to the incoming data.

One of the minor things I noticed was in PoK receiving multiple falling damage messages from jumping down from the library but not actually taking the damage. Also, a fall in another zone that delivered enough damage to kill me but didn't, no damage received according to the client.

Since this isn't a graphical error but an error in the way the data is being processed it might produce some interesting data but unlikely to fall under the ghosting hack guidelines.
#70 May 07 2008 at 10:32 AM Rating: Default
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ghosting, at least the way it is used currently, refers to basically attacking a mob at extreme range without risk, and in the modern incarnation with pretty much all delay removed from your attacks (or from your special attacks.) (It's not really no delay -- but it's close enough for all practical purposes. You also aren't actually attacking at range, you are warping back and forth between the mob and your starting spot very fast. You go fast enough that the mob can never hit you, so it's pretty much the same as attacking at range. The warping involved is not what SOE is tracking to catch it.)

Fall damage doesn't matter, it's all clientside. You could turn it off completely and nothing would happen.

The affinity problems, as well as some bugs with deleveling when you have runspeed AA's, DO occasionally set off speed hacking checks. These won't get you banned, but will constantly boot you to the server select screen. (The way they look for speed hacking does not trigger off of warp, and is pretty to avoid for actual speed hackers.)

Superdedooper high DPS is pretty irrelevant.

Edited, May 7th 2008 2:33pm by Groogle
#71 May 08 2008 at 11:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Groogle, how much does soe pay you
My war was banned because he is owned by me and the two accts that were banned are a cleric and a shaman hmmm lots of melee power there. The cleric/shaman both zoned into the instanced late because I didn't have a task invite to the shaman at first and she died by the kick of the guardian then the cleric rezed her. The rest of the group zoned in and started clearing the first level. Once I got the shaman to a safe area to rez with the cleric I did so, and got her looted and spells up, and then gated to gl to get some caster crack. I then zoned the cleric into the instanced and began healing while I was buffing the shaman in the guildhall. So 5 in the guardian now clearing level one then after getting buffs in gh I zoned the shaman to DSH and got added to the task. I then lev'ed and invised her and ran her to the guardian and zoned in. We killed 1-2 mobs more on level one and then took the elevator to the second level. We killed there took elevator to next level killed some more mobs then took ramp invised past as many as we could then killed at seeinvis mobs.

What SOE said about Rmahnee and Tilomini is,

"There is undisputable proof here that a character on both accounts was using the ghost kill hack. This type of thing cannot be done by mistake, and these accounts will not be released"

"The incident in question which lead to the disciplinary action occurred on 4-19-2008, when the characters Rmahnee and Tilomini entered the Mechanamatic Guardian with a group and proceeded to utilize a known exploitive software package to clear the zone of the mobs in the area. Due to the nature of the third party software package, it's use is considered a gross violation of the terms of service and a single offense will result in the banning of the account in question. Hence the issuance of the disciplinary action in question."

Well the area was cleared except for a few mobs when they zoned in by the rest of the group. and they didn't zone into the task at the same time, rmahnee was at least ten minute earlier than tilo who had to rebuff and go through all the zoning bs you know sit 30-60seconds while the zone updates.

We killed one named about 1 hour in and the loot from that was given to one of the druids in the grps' alts a week later Ozman was banned for "receiving something from the guardian" is what I was told over the phone. My war received nothing but xp from the Guardian but, they decided to ban him since I was sending petitions from that acct IMO, of course thats not the reason given. I was actually never sent an email explaining why the acct was banned. When I called customer service I was told i must have gotten some loot from there so the acct was banned, Which is wrong in fact and in practice (if anything they could have taken the item I received, which I didn't receive btw)

AND BTW when I say BANNED they CLOSE my acct so I have no way to petition in game or anywhere else.

And another thing they <SOE< ban(CLOSE) my accts on logout on Friday evening: (In my case Sat morning at 5am both times. the cleric/shaman, and a week later the War "with an active petition" ). At a time when I can do nothing for the weekend due to SOE being closed on weekends.

I have also been told That GMs don't bann accounts. So who does? if GMs don't.
I am sure you have some perfectly good reason that soe has banned me groogle.

They have made a mistake in my case and all I can do now is wait for e-mail as to why they have closed my acct s. I too have emailed ltuutle and have received no reply by email as of today.

More than one player has explained what we did, which was all above board but I have yet to get any response that would explain exactly what I did to ghost kill with a cleric and a shaman when I had a war and a paladin in the grp that were tanking the mobs.
This is just an exhausting ordeal over a game I really used to enjoy.

I still do not know what the GHOST KILL HACK is either.

Regards,
Rmahnee

Edited, May 8th 2008 3:23pm by rmahnee

Edited, May 8th 2008 3:25pm by rmahnee
#72 May 08 2008 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
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So you don't actually have to be hacking in order to be banned for hacking, you just have to meet several unknown conditions and you're accused of and banned for hacking.
Or if you get hit by a hacking bards' AE song, (if I correctly understood) brilliant, just brilliant.
wtg Sony.
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#73 May 08 2008 at 6:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Groogle wrote:
Since they are looking for one very specific thing and not just a malformed packet, it would be pretty shocking if this were data corruption or something else weird inside the eq client.


You're assuming that they're actually looking at the data bits inside the packet, and not just the header.


Looking just as the statements made by polly (and assuming the entire thing isn't fabricated), it would appear that this isn't a case of the folks just mixing up a name or something. They were able to list exactly the times she was on, the zones she was in, and the loot they gained. Clearly, they didn't typo a name.

That leaves us with some other form of mistake. And IMO, it's vastly more likely that whatever methodology they're using to flag ghosting is somehow occasionally getting a false positive. We can sit here and speculate about what that is all day long, but it's pretty clear that it is happening. This, of course, assumes that polly didn't make up the entire thing, and that her account was reinstated after the fact. If they actually did examine the packets and determine conclusively that ghosting was used, I can only assume they wouldn't have done that. Which leads me to assume that they aren't really looking at the packet data. Certainly not directly. They're using some kind of filtering software to catch them (hence the "X lines of hacking client" statements). That immediately sets alarm bells in my mind since there are a huge number of ways to get false positives when you do that.


I know what you're saying. Yes. It would be impossible to accidentally happen to actually replicate the exact headers and data bits to ghost. However, the two cases before us are not saying that their clients suddenly starting killing mobs across the zone at super speed all on their own. You're correct. That would be impossible. But all that's required is for *any* packets to be received by the SoE server from your computer with the same packet header formation as that used by the ghosting hack. The data inside only needs to be correct to actually ghost kill stuff. And, as I pointed out earlier, that's almost impossible to detect automatically since that data is dynamic (changes based on what's going on in the game at any given moment). I highly doubt that they're actually looking at that. They're simply counting packets coming in with that header.


Um... And that's entirely possible to have happen accidentally. Doubly so if that particular header actually "does something" in the game (which apparently it does). If the server interacts with the client based on data sent with that header, then it's quite possible that a single bit flip in a header file could trigger a cascade of back and forth communications also using that same header. A bit flip in a header will not be picked up by most checksums, so it'll pass the network layer just fine, but the application wont know what to do with it. If it's a "valid" header in the sense that the software reacts to it, but the data is mangled, most systems will send a request for a resend. This will then prompt the client to resend data with the same header in response to that request. Possibly saying something like "Nope. I didn't send you anything with this header" (sent to that header!). Of course if the server isn't properly set up to error correct for that case (like say, it's not supposed to be talked to by a client directly anyway), it may just interpret it as garbage and do another "say again?" request. Repeat eternally (or until some event resets stuff like when you zone).


Again. Just looking at lines of code sent with a specific application header does *not* give sufficient evidence of a hack. If that's what they're doing, they are going to get false positives. They really should follow that with a check to see if the account in question is actually doing something like massively higher dps rates then normal, or taking out mobs located at position X, while they're at position Y, or any of a number of other things you could check to see if ghost killing is actually being used.
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#74 May 09 2008 at 3:57 AM Rating: Decent
There's a reason why I've been wary of returning once more to finally get a character to the top level, this is it. Don't get me wrong, I will be coming back in a month or two once I'm settled in at my new apartment and am ready for a break from EVE, but things like these are one of the reasons I didn't come back sooner.

I hope you find a solution to the problems you're having with the often rude people who run things in EQ. And maybe I'll see you in the game at some point.
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#75 May 09 2008 at 4:10 AM Rating: Decent
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After reading this post, I've got to say i'm a littler nervous. I am planning to hopefully make a return to EQ at some point, and I'm wondering if the GM's and other EQ Police Officers have shunted my account.....

ugh.

-----------------------
Norfare Fae`Oallon- 66 Mage (epic)
Atheldur- 55 Monk (epic)
Anldar Ve`eurlen- 52 Druid (epic)
Valdain Fea`Amael- 51 Rogue (epic)
Erellont Alcarin- 47 Bard
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Erellont- 47 Bard
<Altruistic Brotherhood>, Cazic-Thule Server.

World Of Warcraft:

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Magtheridon Realm

Anladar- 70 Druid (retired)

Dalaran Realm
#76 May 09 2008 at 5:00 AM Rating: Default
26 posts
Dang Gbaji,

I see why they call you the encyclopedia! It seems to me that, as you said, we can sit here and speculate all day long. We can see that the filtering system is capable of making mistakes. I guess the next step is to bring this topic, maybe this thread, to the big dogs to whom it concerns. I say the big dogs because were getting the runaround from everybody else. The fact that Sony reinstated my account and gave all my items back, makes me think that they took a closer look at the information contained in flagged the packet header('s).
How can we get Sony to hear us and take a closer look at Rmahnee's account
#77 May 09 2008 at 6:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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PolleyPauhana wrote:
The fact that Sony reinstated my account and gave all my items back, makes me think that they took a closer look at the information contained in flagged the packet header('s).


Honestly, I doubt it. Barring building a test environment with the zone loaded and reset to the same conditions during the time in question and comparing data, there's really about no way to correlate the actual bits in the data block to actions in the game. It's dynamic. That means it's reacting to the state of the server at any given time. Tracing that is virtually impossible (which is why I keep saying that they're almost certainly not actually looking to see if you're ghosting, but are flagging off something much easier to pick up).


Most likely, they just made a human judgment call. They looked at your level. They looked at the zones you were in. They looked at the time frame. The concluded that if you were ghosting, you somehow managed to not kill any mobs at a rate higher then one would expect given the situation, and you didn't get any more gear then one would expect. So they gave you the benefit of the doubt.


I'd be willing to bet that beyond counting packets with specific headers, and checking loot and kill logs, they don't have any other tools available to examine this. That's not necessarily bad (since, as I said, it would be incredibly hard to do anything more then that). The scary bit is that they appear to be completely reliant on the record of packet headers and unwilling to correlate that with the other data they do have. If you get data indicating ghosting, but then look at the kill and loot logs and don't see anything unusual, your first instinct should *not* be to assume the person was ghosting and ban their account. Your first instinct should be that whatever trigger you're using to detect ghosting isn't working properly and investigate that.


I've written process parsers and loggers. Trust me. Anyone who says that they can't get a false entry either isn't bothering to check for false entries, or is lying to you.



Quote:
How can we get Sony to hear us and take a closer look at Rmahnee's account



Dunno. Could try posting this to either the tech support, offline SOE discussion, or one of the dev boards on Sony's site
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#78 May 09 2008 at 7:54 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
If you get data indicating ghosting, but then look at the kill and loot logs and don't see anything unusual, your first instinct should *not* be to assume the person was ghosting and ban their account. Your first instinct should be that whatever trigger you're using to detect ghosting isn't working properly and investigate that.


This is why I was so frustrated in the first place. Good to hear someone else say it. As for what you said, it does make sense. Thanks again for the info.

I think I will post a link to this on the Sony website. I assume it will get taken down right away, but I really hope they are willing to hear me/us out this time.

Thanks again!

Polley
#79 May 10 2008 at 1:33 AM Rating: Decent
1 post
An ACCURATE description of these hacks:

Ghost Killing:
Most people confuse this with Nodelay/Monkbug. More on those later, this is what ghost killing acctually is:
'Ghosting' is a MacroQuest program that sends very very fast warp commands (I don't know how this is done, but it's with packets). You will warp very fast between the mob and your original position, on your screen it will look like you're just attacking the air, but if someone else looks at you you will be flickering... as though warping very fast. You can still get hit doing this.

TL;DR: Ghosting is warping to a mob and your original position very fast.

No Delay:
Broken since Jan '08, permenantly. SoE did something right :). This was commonly used be SHADOWKNIGHTS mostly, because when you're doing attacks with literally no delay, believe me, you get a metric ton of ripostes. Shadowknight gets AAs and spells, and epic clicks which let them heal themselves for 100% damage hit. It was literally possible to clear out a whole raid instance in minuets, and you could avoid mechanics such as hp locking on Hanvar because the script couldn't take your DPS. Used in conjuction with Ghost Kill.

TL;DR: Broken, turned delay off on attacks, simple.

'Monk'bug:
This is still in effect, and acctually works on any class with intimidation. What it does is take advantage of the potential attack you gain from intimidation. This works best with monks as they have the highest amount of attacks from intimidation. Basically it's like nodelay, except that the delay is only turned off for intimidation. You can still kill things pretty fast, but it's no longer possible to solo Solteris etc alone. You'll have to box clerics et cetera.

ZoneWarp:
This is just a glorified version of regular ol' warp (I'm sure that dosen't need a description). What it does is NOT take you instantly to any zone, but warps you to the zonelines of the zones you want to go to.

For example, if I want to go to Katta Castrum from Toxxulia Forest, this is what would happen:

/zone katta
You'll be warped to the zoneline of the Barren Coast.
Immediatly after you zone in, you'll be warped to the zoneline of The Buried Sea.
Immediatly after you zone in, you'll be warped to the zoneline of Katta Castrum.

It's so fast after you zone in, you don't get to see the screen load, it stays at the loading screen.

TL;DR: Warps you to zone in co-ordinates. You still have to travel to every zone on the way to your destination.

How Hackers Get To Stay In Instances!
This isn't really very well known. A compile of MQ with Ghostkill/Monbug will probably have this as well:
ZoneLock: Allows the hacker to stay locked in a zone even if the instance is dead.
InstanceKill: Drops everyone from an instance, and effectively destroys it, it dosen't appear on your expedition or task list, and unless you're zonelocked, you'll get booted.

About knowing when a mob spawns etc, that's a SEQ feature. MQ features a map, but it sucks and is built onto the ingame map. It dosen't show spawn timers, but you can type /target mobname and target a mob anywhere in the zone. ShowEQ can't show you loot tables, but it can show you potential loot.
#80 May 10 2008 at 4:52 AM Rating: Decent
26 posts
Well I made a post on the EQ Forums at Sony. Was told that posting it there was "cluttering" the website. I asked where a better place would be to post it and before getting an answer, the post was removed completely.

I'm over it. I'm sure not having my 15 bucks a month wont hurt Sony so Im not going to play the game anymore. Quite frankly Im not even mad anymore....im just over it.

Good luck to you Thaddium, I hope you get everything worked out. To anyone else this happens to..Good luck!

Ill probably check this thread along as its alive. Maybe they will figure it out and Ill come back...Anyone want a 73 Warrior?! Hahaha


Polley Pauhana

Edited, May 10th 2008 8:56am by PolleyPauhana
#81 May 10 2008 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
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To be fair, did Sony not give back your account to you?
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#82 May 10 2008 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
I was in buried sea doing skelly hand aug quest once when all of a sudden I took off running with levi across the water 2 or 3 times bard speed... crossed zone in 2-3 sec... thought was glitch like maybe I was hit by boat and dragged till i went to fight mob when mob hit 19% it took off running faster then mob ever ran there .. at this point I camped out and re-ran full patch... I now there is some macro quest thing that makes you run faster and scared me that I might look like I hacked... It was all returned to normal when I got back in game...



Edited, May 10th 2008 3:57pm by Ultralit
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#83 May 10 2008 at 3:57 PM Rating: Default
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Yes Dekusutaa, in all fairness they did give the account back. However with that they threatened that if i were caught cheating again they would close the account forever...and since I don't why I'm showing up as cheating I just assume not play.
I figure if I get the hankering to play again in the future, at least I'll have an account to do it from.

Polley
#84 May 11 2008 at 3:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Groogle wrote:
[quote] soe should never ban anyone for grouping with a hacker. unless there's chat text proving the group mates knew about it.

it's not easy for new, nor experianced players to know someone is cheating.
Bans by association are only given in cases such as when someone zones in to anguish with everything dead and only one other person in zone and loots it all. They -aren't- given for situations where it's a mostly legit group.



Just to update you, the player who accompanied Rmahnee and I into the guardian petitioned to ask if he would be banned for being in the group with Rmahnee and received a reply from a GM saying no, unless he himself used 3rd party software, he would not be banned THEN received an email from a Senior GM saying they were considering banning him for association and gaining loot or xp or flags etc.

I get the feeling Groogle you are playing devils advocate here, rather than calling us cheaters (unlike the clown who said SOE dont make mistakes) so I'd once again like to say 2 things. One, Rmahnee and Ozman were not cheating, I know it catagorically not because I have known them for years, or because I know they are honest, but because I was there, for 6 hours, and at no point did I witness any mobs dying by any method tagged exploitable.

Two, If anyone, ANYONE, has any constructive, positive advice other than, be patient, please post, because things are getting worse, SOE are working through the chain of people in the group and although they are making all the right noises (I am sorry you friend was banned for hacking) they continue to take over zealous action. I dont see them at this point apologising, for what is an ever worsening gaff.
#85 May 18 2008 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Soe has done nothing to actually check the loggs or anything on my accounts as far as I can see they keep going back to the original gm who wrote back on my petition on 30 April that I was hacking on 19 April. They still give no particulars and speak in generalities. I will continue to try but they seem to be fervent that I cheated even though they are completely wrong. They never even actually gave me a written reason why they banned my warriors account. I seriously doubt I will ever support any sony product ever again as this has left me with a very bitter taste.

Regards
Rmahnee
#86 May 18 2008 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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Finals = I am not around anywhere near as much as I should be.

They -do- look beyond header data though, or at least they maintain that they do.

Quote:
I get the feeling Groogle you are playing devils advocate here, rather than calling us cheaters (unlike the clown who said SOE dont make mistakes) so I'd once again like to say 2 things. One, Rmahnee and Ozman were not cheating, I know it catagorically not because I have known them for years, or because I know they are honest, but because I was there, for 6 hours, and at no point did I witness any mobs dying by any method tagged exploitable.

I'm not playing devils advocate. I honestly think that a false positive is pretty unlikely. Either they cheat, or someone at SOE made a really dumb mistake.
#87 May 19 2008 at 2:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Groogle wrote:
I'm not playing devils advocate. I honestly think that a false positive is pretty unlikely. Either they cheat, or someone at SOE made a really dumb mistake.


Maybe not a false positive but an anomaly of some type wouldn't be unheard of.

I think it's a matter of SOE being way over zealous and nailing anything that looks out of the ordinary. Wouldn't be the first time SOE has gone overboard.
#88 May 19 2008 at 4:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Ever notice that that out of every one here and in other EQ fourms that ever got banned it was always Sonys fault and they didnt do anything wrong?

I think very few of these storys are true. I have no doubt that SOE screws up from time to time....hell ever often in some cases, but to believe that every one of these caess the players was not at fault is a little unbelieveable. It seems to me there is a bit of a panic atm in the fourms. Everyone seems to up upset wondering if they will be next....chill out.

Every game has cheaters. IT make no financial sence for SOE or any game company to just go mucking about banning accounts for no reason.
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#89 May 19 2008 at 5:43 AM Rating: Default
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Well Roslek, Your correct, It's hard not to be skeptical about people posting on forums. People can make any claim they want, and there is only so much one can do to validate it. Any of us could argue that we did absolutely nothing wrong, but I'm willing to bet you, and most people, would never believe us.

I don't think that Sony is mucking about banning accounts for no reason, and I don't think anybody made that accusation. At this point the problem lies within the fact that Sony made an error but is unwilling to acknowledge it. They are very adamant that they are right, and we are guilty. All we want is for them to look long and hard at the situation, admit they screwed up, and make an attempt to rectify it and fix the problem.

Polley Pauhana


Edited for grammer

Edited, May 19th 2008 9:45am by PolleyPauhana
#90 May 19 2008 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
Also, think about it this way....

If you are a legitimate player, you will absolutely complain if you are banned for something you know you didn't do.

If you are a hack/cheating player, you know the risks and are okay with the resulting ban knowing you did it.

This would be why we see the complaints and still think that Sony can't get it wrong 100% of the time.
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#91 May 20 2008 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
34 posts
My suggestion is this.

If you're in a group, and it seems like someone is using a hack or some other violation of the ToS, leave the group and /report the player.

I was in a group recently where a guy was bragging about how much real world money he was making selling platinum. I (as well as a couple guildies in the group) left immediately, and /reported him. We all got responses of thanks from a GM, and I can only assume that we're not on any watch list or tagged for anything.
#92 May 20 2008 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
34 posts
And one more point...

I fully understand why SoE wants to ban everyone in the group.. and here's why.

I play on the combine server, and we all know who the plat farmers are (hell, they got their own guild now..) but, the main ones never seem to be doing anything wrong, but let their other boxed accounts get banned, while they reap the rewards by saying 'what, it wasn't me, it was so and so, i had nothing to do with it'. And SoE seems to know what they're doing, and thus the group bannings.

That said, i fully believe and understand why you're upset. Hopefully you get everything resolved.
#93 May 23 2008 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
25 posts
You seem to be WAY OFF THE SUBJECT.... We the grp gained nothing , a cloak that went to an alt whooppeee , we spent close to 6 hrs in the zone we were trying to find out about getting the tier 3 spells from finishing quests in the guardian, And Gloruk was closest to having it done We were helping guildies and trying to become more familiar with what was needed to get tier 3 spells SO GET OFF THIS IDEA THAT I GAINED ANYTHING... all I have gained is a boatload of frustration going to links that until recently I could not even get into. I don't run third party cheat software I ran wineq and magelo so please tell me if that is cheat software if it is then I will be the first to say my mistake but to my knowledge it is legal to run magelo update and wineq and I'm not even sure if I was running wineq. When we decided to do the guardian, I had loaded a slower so that we could get started, and the slower was camped in the zone after I dropped the grp and the task in order to get another player who plays his shammy much better than I play mine as a third box. So get off the idea that we gained anything, I / we gained nothing except alot of frustration over something I still don't understand.

Rmahnee

edited for grammar

Edited, May 23rd 2008 7:29pm by rmahnee
#94 May 26 2008 at 3:49 AM Rating: Decent
25 posts
This morning I checked my email and found that the first two closed accounts have been restarted. I logged into both the cleric and the shaman, and asked that they restart my warriors account back up.
On the two accounts that were closed first, I was told After digging through your logs and taking a long look at your account history, I have lifted the ban on these two accounts.
The original petition was for the two accounts that were closed at first, so I just replied to the petition and asked that the third account also be reactivated. I am sure that they will also reactivate that account also.
I just wish I hadn't had to go back and forth on this. I do appreciate the fact that upper game management didn't just ignore my requests and they double checked. I don't like spammers anymore than any of you all that have posted here. But I know it takes alot out of a person trying to figure out what they did wrong when they know they aren't cheating.

Regards

Rmahnee
#95 May 27 2008 at 8:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Congratz on getting back in. And let us know if the warrior does also.

Edited, May 27th 2008 11:24am by kasandra
#96 May 27 2008 at 8:36 AM Rating: Decent
Persistence has paid off for both these guys.
So another simple lesson, if you KNOW you didn't do anything keep on them and they may see that there is some merit to your argument and they will restart the account.

Congrats guys. Welcome back.
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40th Vah Shir Beastlord
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#97 May 28 2008 at 3:34 AM Rating: Decent
26 posts
Way to go Rmahnee! I'm glad you got the accounts back! It sounds like Sony might be realizing that mistakes are made and they are correcting them. I hope that they can use what they learned from us, and others I'm sure, to fine tune their detection methods.

Welcome back!

Polley Pauhana
#98 Jun 03 2008 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
Siddious Scalezarr 80 Sk was Banned on The Tunare server for Plat hacking and ghost killing.When I called Custumer service they said that they had llegit proof of my doings. I simply reply I didnt even know how to install maps on my comp for the first year of eq so i ran around blindly. When i asked to show me proof they cannot and were very rude to me!I was also informed that i ad been warping all over the place. I said that i use camp fires alot when i use a campfire it ports me across zone to my group. Siddious was banned March 31 and to this day CS will stilll not work with me i had 2 mill plat on my account i got from selling trade skill stuff and armor they said i had plat hacks??? If anyone can please help me it would be much appreciated


Darkreaper Siddious Scalezarr
80 Shadowknght
73 days played
831 AA's
#99 Jun 04 2008 at 4:23 AM Rating: Decent
16 posts
Oh Siddious, this is Tinkishere. I am so sorry to hear this hon. I've played with you a lot and I know you are not a hacker babe. I really hope this all gets worked out for you.
#100Fjalarr, Posted: Jun 11 2008 at 8:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) http://www.macroquest2.com/wiki/index.php/MacroQuest_2
#101 Jun 11 2008 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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nm, the one I was replying to fell below the line already.

Edited, Jun 12th 2008 9:57am by Whitman
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