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problems with lull in hard LDoNFollow

#1 Mar 08 2004 at 8:45 PM Rating: Decent
i am a pally and usually i am asked to pull using soothe. i get a lot of resists. i was wondering if cha really matters. i've heard so many opinions about that. some say it does, others it depends on mobs resist. my cha is quite low (around 60). or maybe lull just got nerf. anyways whatever u guys have to comment about this issue will be helpfull. i was told that i should first cast cancel magic then soothe. i hope this works. if any1 knows any other technique that would help me get less resisted, i would really appreciate it.
#2 Mar 08 2004 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
cancel magic will get you aggro. charisma does not help on lull resists. what charisma does do is decide whether or not you will be aggroed on a lull resist. a cha of 115+ pretty much gets rid of lull aggro
#3 Mar 08 2004 at 11:35 PM Rating: Decent
115+? Nah, Hard LDoN requires tons more than that. Anything lower than 220 is iffy.

My Cha gets jacked to 280 and I still have problems relying on lull alone.

As a Paladin pulling a hard LDoN with a room of just 3, your best bet would be to stun one, run away dragging the other two with you. Have some CC on the other end and you engage the non-CC'd mob.

By the time you get back to the group you should have another incoming close on your heels (the one you stunned). The CC'r can then remove that threat.

Rooting is an alternative to mezzing if you do not have an enchanter. I'd position a rooter halfway between the start of the pull and the group.

Another thing you may want to try is Atone (or whatever you have in that line)... Paladins get that right? Atone the rooted mob as long as he is far enough away from aggro. Then again, Atoning a mob that is not a threat (rooted) defeats the purpose, eh?

To be honest, that whole scenario will probably get you killed a few times trying it out, but once you get the hang of it, you'll be pulling LDoN Hards like a champ.

I won't pretend to be an expert on Paladin-pulling hards, because I am far from it.

What I am is an expert on Bard-pulling hards. This is what I do, perhaps you can adapt it to your problem.

Room with 4 mobs... Jack Charisma up... Lull... If Fail, I Fade (wipes aggro and stuff)... Let mobs reset... if a loner is left behind(or 2), i tag it. Result = 2 mobs from room of 4.

If i cant get a good tag in, I mez one... This causes the other 2 to re-aggro. Now I have 2 mezzed mobs and 2 incoming.

Get to the group... Fade (poof!)

Only have to deal with 2 mobs. If i cant keep 1 mezzed and kill the other, then i need to roll up a ranger or something.

Dunno how much of that you can adapt to Paladin type pulling, but with the right amount of CHA, Spell lineup, and guts, you can most likely pull any hard dungeon.

Hell, it's only XP. You're 65 now right? ***** XP. Get a rez and shake it off.

Note: The usage of stuns requires them to last a good while... if they don't then you need to come up with another method.

Maybe you can try PROXIMITY AGGRO pulling. That usually generates only a small amount of aggro and not a lot of extra mobs. Just tip toe in inch by inch till you are barely on the edge of aggro radius and then take a deep breath, and move in a bit more till you do aggro it.

Make sense? Or should I just stfu and go back to singing mana? :)
#4 Mar 09 2004 at 1:51 AM Rating: Good
hes not 65, if he was, he couldn't lull ldon at all
#5 Mar 09 2004 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
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First, make sure it's actually being RESIST and that it's not a question of the mobs being too high of a level for you to affect them. As a Paladin you don't get the most recent version of the spell for your level like Clerics and Enchanters do so your spell might also be more resistable. Also, since you ARE in HARD dungeons, the monsters are higher level and that alone gives them better chances to resist.

I used to think CHA was a main factor of resists, but it uses CHA(as stated above) as a secondary check made JUST to see if they'll aggro if you fail the first check. Being an Enchanter my CHA is near capped so even on resists, getting aggro is rare for me. With a 60 CHA though, I bet they love to chase your @$$! hehe

Hoped something in there helped. =)

Edited, Tue Mar 9 07:56:31 2004 by KerikDaven
#6 Mar 09 2004 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Just my 2cp..

I have a 46 Pally also that always ends up pulling in LDON dungeons. I have only once gotten what I call a "critical resist" where a mob resisted the lull and aggroed me. My charisma is very low - like 60ish. What I do have happen more frequently now is that I try to lull and get the message that says the mob in unaffected. This is because the mob is higher level than what my lull spell can affect. In these cases I have a hotbutton set up for the cleric in our group asking him to please lull the mob (I am already targetted on the mob and he just needs to assist to get correct mob). He then tells me mob is lulled an then I proceed.

Hope that helps some...

Clio
#7 Mar 09 2004 at 5:01 PM Rating: Decent
I have noticed the same thing with my pacifying as well. In a regular ldon , I am 58 pally, I have no trouble and no resists but as soon as I do a hard there will be a couple mobs unaffected That usually is a sign that you will get a resist and agro the world. I think there is a correlation not so much with charisma, I am a dwarf doesn't get much uglier, but with level of mobs and resists.

Never even knew pacify got resisted till I did ldon because it never happened to me before in 2 years of EQ.

As I get in higher level groups my new plan is to instill one and quickly stun the next one that moves. Make sure the group knows you are doing this. Most of the time we get 1 down as the stunned one hits me and the instilled one shortly thereafter. Also this plan will leave you with agro unless someone is stupid enough to nuke the mob before it hits you. Problem with this is at times instill just doesn't stick, but in my own opinion if the chanter isn't willing to pacify he better be ready to mezz or I don't need him at all.

Not the greatest of plans and I sometimes get my shirt nuked off but if you want a pally to pull when he really has no business pulling I will do it to the best of my abilities.

Last point is I have noticed that when I get resists the enchanter also seems to get them from the same mobs, have seen it happen at least 4 times, and when I get a resist I get pounded on a chanter gets a resist he makes it about 2 steps before folding up. Just my 2cp
#8 Mar 09 2004 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
think there is a correlation not so much with charisma
yes, resists rates are always linked to levels, and well, the mob's resists. but you can't control levels or resists, you can control charisma.
#9 Mar 09 2004 at 5:34 PM Rating: Good
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Ok. I just want to clarify something, cause some folks are still confusing them.


Folks are talking about three completely different things:

A resisted lull/sooth/calm/pacify is just that. You failed to affect the mob. This happens literally once in a blue moon (I've been using these spells since they unbroke them and I can count on the fingers of one hand the times that it's been resisted). Your Cha has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's purely your level and skill versus the mobs level and MR. Um... The lull line also has a *huge* -MR effect on it. You will lull pretty much anything you target every time.


A "critical resist" is extremely rare (I think I've only had it happen to me once. Ever). Basically, if the mob resists (which happens super rarely anyway), a check is done to see if it agros. This is also super rare, however Cha does affect this chance. Um... Since the resist rate is so incredibly low anyway, this is really irrelevant. A paladin walking around in +cha gear so he can reduce the odds of getting one of these is a complete moron. Having as much AC/HP as possible will help you literally 1000000 times more. Basically, don't worry about this. Just be aware that it's something that can happen someday, and otherwise just ignore it.


An "unsuccessful attempt" is not a resist. Each level of the lull line affects mobs up to a particular level (capping out for paladins with pacify at level 55). This is not a resist check! There is no random chance here folks. If the mob is higher then the spell you are using will affect, you will get a message that says something like: "Target is unaffected". No matter how many times you attempt it, you will never affect that target with your spell. In fact, if you pay attention, you'll note that you don't even cast the spell. You do not spend the spell casting duration, and you don't spend any mana. The instant you click your spell gem with that mob targeted, it simply tosses that message back at you (good way to check level of mobs btw).



Odds are what's happening is that the mobs in the hard ldon are high enough level that your soothe spell wont work on them. That's just part of the challenge of the hard setting (or normal setting once you get a group that's mostly mid 60s or higher). Do not listen to anyone who tells you to get Cha buffs. They are pointless (and really do nothing in this case). You don't need it. I have a 55 cha, and resists on pacify are so extremely rare as to be completely irrelevant. I've had mobs bug out and warp through walls and agro on our group for no reason at all more often then I've had pacify resisted. It's just not something to worry about.


What you should do is this: Figure out what ratio of mobs your soothe spell wont work on. Again, this is really easy to tell. Poke your head in a room (or use F9 to target around corners). Start targeting mobs and casting soothe. It'll immediately tell you which ones you can affect (you can even duck to cancel castings if you don't want to spend the mana). If there's a mix of mobs, soothe the ones that you can (and need) and pull one that isn't. I've found that often they are mixed in enough that you can usually minimize the number of mobs you pull doing this.


If you've got a cleric, they generally get a higher level spell then you. Have the cleric assist you for targets and cast his pacify spell (or whatever he's got). Or just pull a few at a time and let the cleric heal.

If you've got a bard, let him pull. :)


If you've got a chanter, just pull and have him CC. Maybe on really crowded rooms, have him pacify a few to ease things (let him make this call really).

Be aware that necros can sometimes be very effective pullers in hard LdoN advents (if they know what they are doing). They also get CC abilities. Same logic as with chanters applies (but don't pull like 8 and count on your necro CCing them!)


For the most part, if you're overly concerned about pulling singles in ldon, you'll fail your mission due to time. Mobs in ldon don't really hit that hard. Obviously, you'll need to make the assessment based on the group you are in. I've had groups where I was the only melee character in the group (so single pulling was kinda important). I've had groups where we could have offtanked 3 or 4 with no problem. You need to decide what approach to take and how cautious to be with pulls based on the group you are in.
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#10 Mar 09 2004 at 6:03 PM Rating: Good
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i only wish that i didnt get agro when lull is resisted. seems the lower the level, the greater the chance of resist + agro. I only have a mid 20s pally, 22 cleric, 8 chanter and 24 bard to compare off of, but with all of them they resist and get agro a lot and it starts to decrease as they gain level and get new lull spells. the chance also seems greater the higher the mob is than you.

my 62 druid is a whole different story. I use Harmony of Nature and regularly lull red mobs...even if it gets resisted they don't agro usually. he only has 83 CHA.

based on those experiences, I'd say that level has a big part to play in it. like previously stated, each spell can only lull mobs to a certain level, and probably the higher the spell the better...but i don't think toon level should be discredited as a factor in this equation either.
#11 Mar 09 2004 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
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Hmm... Well I had pacify already when they unbroke that line (the entire line of spells used to be useless for years since it never reduced agro enough to prevent social agro and literally lasted like one tick). So I have no idea what the resists are like on lower level spells. All I can say is that I've pulled for hours at a time everything from blues to reds for hundreds of play sessions since that time and resists have never been a factor.

It could very well be spell level based. I have no idea. I guess that's just something to look forward too when you gain levels. With pacify at least, your resist rate is so ridiculously low as to be irrelevant. All that matters is whether the mobs are low enough level to be affected by the spell.
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#12 Mar 09 2004 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji:
Quote:
I have a 55 cha, and resists on pacify are so extremely rare as to be completely irrelevant.


Are you referring to Hard or Normal LDoN?

There is a huge difference. I agree with you completely if you are speaking in terms of Normal difficulty dungeons. I have never once had a resist (much less a critical resist) in Normal settings. However, Hard difficulty dungeons are a different animal all together. As I said before, high Charisma is a must-have if you want to pull reliably well.

It is my experience that fully 75%-80% of the mobs there will resist a lull attempt, and out of those that do resist, at least half of them (if not more) will be criticals.

My lull affects mobs up to level 68, so I never have the "target is unaffected" message, except when a mob is obviously not Level 68 or is hard coded to be immune.

If my Charisma is very low (below 220) I see more resists/criticals than if I am maxxed at my current cap of 280.

I should have read up on the Paladin spells before my first post and noted the level restrictions. I just assumed all lull-casters eventually topped out at 68. My bad. Silly me.

Quote:
If you've got a bard, let him pull. :)

Never a truer word spoken.

Edited, Tue Mar 9 19:25:44 2004 by msteele
#13 Mar 09 2004 at 8:29 PM Rating: Good
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The bard lull song may very well be cha based. The paladin pacify spell is not.

Ldon hard does not magically make the mobs special. They are the exact same mobs. Just about 5 levels higher on average. No amount of playing on a harder ldon setting will change the fact that with paladin lulls you will run into the "target unaffected" message long before you will ever see a significant number of resists (at least with pacify).

You're comparing apples to oranges I think. I can tell you for a fact that my charisma has absolutely no bearing on my ability to pacify mobs (ok, such a tiny difference as to be completely irrelevant). Mobs that are 55th level and under I can pacify all day and all week with nary a resist. It just happens so rarely as to not be worth mentioning. Mobs above 55th level are simply immune to the spell, so resists don't happen either (spell simply doesn't go off on them). There is no middle ground for paladins.


That is why I said before and still say that for a paladin to equip +cha gear in an attempt to make his lull line more effective is totally insane. I really think that most of the people saying they get resists are talking about immune messages, or something else happened that grabbed them agro (like they were standing just a touch too far into the room when casting and got agro). Like I've said. I've used pacify literally for hours at a time continually pulling, in a wide assortement of zones under a wide assortment of sitatuations and resists are basically non-existent.
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#14 Mar 09 2004 at 10:37 PM Rating: Good
Is it possible that for low level players, their spell casting skill might also be a factor?

We know for instance that at low levels (20's - 30's eg) when you get a new nuke and your Evoc skill is well below the level cap, you will get masses of resists and patial resists.

Perhaps the same issue is affecting some people witht he Lull line?

As many an Enchanter and Druid can testify, the same thing happens with Charm.
#15 Mar 10 2004 at 7:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Actually as an Enchanter I don't find that at all, the problem with new spells is they are much more likely to "Fizzle" but once successfully cast it works as intended. Some spells are more effective as you gain levels, but that is something different too and built into the spells.

CHA has no effect on the base casting of the lull series of spells, but if there is a resist, a CHA check for aggro does come into play. Bard songs are CHA based though.

The issue of lower skills at lower levels are most evident with relation to Channelling. Channel largly governs your ability to cast without being interupt and the effectiveness or your spells. If a school of magic you are trying to cast is especially weak for your level, you'll fizz much more also.
#16 Mar 10 2004 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
The bard lull song may very well be cha based. The paladin pacify spell is not.

You must be right, apples and oranges. See? Perhaps I need to go play a Paladin before I start tossing out advice. :)
#17 Mar 10 2004 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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msteele wrote:
Quote:
The bard lull song may very well be cha based. The paladin pacify spell is not.

You must be right, apples and oranges. See? Perhaps I need to go play a Paladin before I start tossing out advice. :)


Lol! That's ok. I wasn't aware that there was a difference in the behavior of bard and pally lulls either (and I'm betting a lot of other folks didn't either). That's the point of a forum like this. We all learn more about the game... :)
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