Is selfishness running rampant?Follow

OK...I just have to vent about this past weekend. Etiquette has never been EQ's strong-suit, however, I am becoming largely disappointed in the level of behavior being exhibited by our fellow gamers. I'm really beginning to wonder if this is just a bad "round of luck" or is there an ongoing trend that needs to be stamped out.

My pally was camped out in the Eastern Wastes this weekend trying to earn some much some much needed XP. The camp that I was at normally is never utilized (I've been in the zone four weeks now), and I announce several times an hour that the camp was taken. Not once, not twice, but five times this weekend a group of higher level PCs barged into the zone and for all purposes took it over. Instead of arguing the matter I decided (several times) to go elsewhere, since I didn't stand a chance of gaining it back until they were done.

On a LDON adventure the main looter duped the entire group and stole all of the winnings. Kwien...if you are reading this you have some serious explaining to do. The group did an outstanding job and finished the adventure in record time. The ranger wouldn't even give the periadot drop to the cleric...indicating that something was amiss.

Deciding to give the pally a rest for a while, I decided to attempt to level the newbie enchanter. BB is infamous for camp stealing, so it didn't surprise me too much that the higher levels jumped in (once again), killed everything in site and basically ignore me. I took this with a grain of salt and chucked it up to the zone.

Still trying to level the enchanter I attempted Derv 3 in N Ro. Even while I was sitting in front of the camp, people going into Oasis took great joy at killing everything in site, eventhough it was obvious that a newbie was trying to level

Is etiquette in EQ dead? Has things deteriorated to a point where you can only group with your guild members?

Okay ive had mixes of all of that, but I have learned to try bear in mind that EQ is full of "sunday drivers"

That is that the weekends can be appalling for even basic etiquette if you happen to hit a bad crowd. Yes I have (well my young rogue) was driven out of hollowshade more (i think) a couple of weeks back by a level 65 farming silks.

Yes i have been driven out of EW (and even GD) by a selfish group that just ran rough shod over my camp.

Yes I have been well and truely stuffed by the ML in LDoN last week - that still smarts but they know who they are, and they have to live with that.

On the plus side there ARE far more great people out there than the ***** than can sometimes show their faces. Remember all the fly by buffs you still get? Even last week when I though a "jerk" was running me out of the giant fort - spoke to him, he apologised - all he wanted was the beard. We sorted it out, he got his beard I got my camp back ... all was well.

On the even more plus side, take this weekend - I ooc i want to kill the evil bastage lucan within an hour the deed is done - this is what eq is about and it is still there and alive and kicking, although grant you it does not always seem like it.

This comes to mind - a few weeks back I was camping the evil Xotil for that damned hilt - every spare second I would be there - popping into the bathroom staying a while, invariably logging without success. One time I popped in and omg there was this guy sat there in MY bathroom. I was so shocked. What could i do - there was nought else for it - I handed him a brew or two we supped a bit - and I left him to it for a while. But let me tell you that throughout he was watching for that bastage as were more than a few others i met over those painfull weeks.


So in answer to your question, I think among some yes selfishness runs rampant - but amongst most of those that have been playing awhile, well etiquette and friendship is still there - maybe even more so. Just dont let a bad weekend bring you down.

One more thought... Do you think it would be worth the time and energy to create a FAQ concerning basic game etiquette? Most of the manuals included with the products make mention of this, but I believe that it is an important of enough of a matter that one can literally not say "to much" on the matter. Any contributors interested in posting ideas on what should be constituted as proper game etiquette...for the record.

In my opinion, etiquette is not so much dead, as people who are playing now a days have not acquired the maturity to appreciate good etiquette.

I think in the old days (like a year ago and before) things were so much different. The game was much harder. When you got a leg up people appreciated it. People were sympatheic and helpful because it was hard for everyone. It seems to me that people are finding it easier to power lvl right out of the box. People who do not appreciate, understand or care (see above entry) when others are in need or destressed. Like I said before, people all used to suffer and help each other all alike, at least the was my experience. It was an exception to see what you described, especially so often.

Now, unfortunately, I think that lack of etiquette (I would think ignorance is a better term, although very similar in this situation) is becoming more common than in the past. I would not go so far as to say it is the rule, but it is the result of many people acquiring high lvl chars quickly or low lvl chars aiming very high very quickly not caring how they get there.

But I choose to try to focus on the good in the (EQ) world. Help people dispite the apparent ignorance, lack of etiquette, and mean-ness.

That is the way I see it.

If you could go back three years and view the old posts on this board, you would find exactly the same sort of posts bewailing, the camp stealers, loot thieves and obnoxious people demanding buffs ports etc. Nothing has changed and the ratio still seems about the same.

Out of some 50 odd LDoN adventures I've had two ML's disappear with the loot, one dumbass auctioning to sell the named drop that he argued over, the minute he arrived back at BB camp, and a whole bunch of very nice people (as opposed to skilled players, lol) who bent over backward to avoid making trouble over loot. I have even seen several Augs rot as each group member insisted that the other should take it.

I think on balance there are still a lot more "nice" people than "nasty" people playing.


Oh, and Taarakian, one of these days you are going to be wandering around PoK begging for a rez or help with a CR and you're gonn find every cleric and druid and wizard you ask, chuckling gleefully as the give you a good dose of the finger.

What goes around, most certainly comes around in the world of Norrath.

Edited, Sun Jan 18 22:40:16 2004 by Iluien

i agree pretty much on everything exept the guard killing ..

A. he's a necro .. killing guards is what necro's do
B. he's a necro ... what does he care what the guards are trying to protect ..
C. he's a necro .. killing guards in a newbie zone ensures the death of young of a race he does not like (and does not like him)

There are still some people that semi roleplay thier toons .. my necro leveled off of freeport guards then moved to the halfling guards then moved to (his hometown) gnome guards (good necro faction) and frequently kills any guard he ever see's .. and yes he is now hunting BB guards but they are a bit trickier with the added npc's in the huts ..

my advice is .. never depend on the npc guards .. cuz you never know if they will be there or not ... and later on you don't have the option to run to guards anyway so get used to it early ...

but for the most part there are a bunch of really great people in everquest .. but there are always a few asshats runnin around too .. you just have to take the good with the bad ..

I've been KS'd, had camps stolen, called names, jipped for ports, and had MLs dissappear without a trace, but overall I find the people in this game and the game itself of a much higher quality than any other online game I've played.

nothing to add

I have found that most guilds still respect camps on my server, when someone steals spawns from my camp, i first tell them, if they dont react i contact their guild and ask if they have a policy on camp stealing, if they do i get in touch with officer and leave it to them to keep their members in line.

MT might not be typical in this respect though low population makes it easier to play nice.

For raid targets rules are different though, but thats a different story.

Actually over the last 5 years or so the camp stealing, ks'n ect. seems to have dropped tenfold on the Quellious server. I joined the server when it first started and it was full of people who who attack mobs you were engaged with, or ran all over your camp, ect..

I think that the fact that the game is *much* easier now, coupled with the fact that there are 5x the zones to hunt in now make people a little less likely to fight over a camp.

You dont own a camp in DAoC?...news to me. I played DAoC the first 2 months it was out and it most certainly had camps just like EQ. The problem was once you hit 50 there was nothing to do but RVR....getting offtrack here, sorry. I happen to like EQs loot and camp style, thats the reason no other MMoG can hold a candle to it IMO.


Basically i just think you had a string of bad luck Valzarius, it happens...some days (weeks) are better than others. Dont get down too much on the game or its players there plenty of decent people around to offset the few bad apples.

Regarding camps, while there may not ba a hard and fast SOE rul on the subject, there shouldn't need to be. It is simply a matter of courtesy. If my group comes upon a camp in an area we wanted to hunt, we either a. share it with their blessing, b. join them, or c. move on. Maybe we don't "have to," but it certainly makes the game more pleasant when you're not arguing with a PC over a hill in PC.

By the same token, if another group simply butts in where mine has obviously been established, we ask them (and expect them) to leave if we can't invite them. Again, common courtesy.

Regarding rudeness, I have certainly seen some on Fennin Ro, but I think it is the exception rather than the norm. In a very short time, I have a long list of friends that I hunt with regularly. They are good, fun people who know how to handle their characters and know how to behave in a group. I would trust any one of them to ML without reservation, and I think they would trust me to do so as well. If I come accross the rare obnoxious PC spawn, I simply ignore him/her.

Hopefully you just hit a run of bad luck.

From the original poster...

I've always realized that camping is not fully recognized by some people. In each circumstance over the weekend I shot a tell to the person (very nicely) that the area was camped, and indicated the approximate amount of time when I would be done. In each case I was either verbally abused or completely ignored. In each case the individual or group proceeded to kill everything in the area leaving me with nothing.

In each of the five instances instead of wasting valuable oxygen I just went to a different site and waited for the group to get done. After doing this the entire weekend it started to get old real quick.

My beliefs reguarding camping:

If the camp contains something to deal with a quest and a person need it, let them have the camp or item. Quests can sometimes be quite hard and time consuming. Also volunteer to help them with the quest if possible.

If you are camping in a newbie zone and are much higher than the others...let the newbies have the camp. The zone was designed for them in mind, and this is just a nice thing to do

When contention for a camp does arise always inform the person nicely, and let them know when you will be done.

If there are plenty of mobs in the camp (more than one party or person can kill) be willing to share the camp

When a heated arguement does occur it is always better to leave and go elsewhere.

Despite these beliefs (which I believe is in everybody's best interest in the game) unresolved conflicts are occuring on a more regular basis.

Curious...I wonder if this is the same group of people that are driving in the right hand turn lane and then go straight at the intersection, just so they can get a couple of car lengths ahead of everyone else.

Valzarius. I think that most of the players in EQ agree with you when it comes to camps. Even though they aren't officially recognized, most folks will follow those simple rules. I always give way to someone who needs a camp more then I do. If they're there for a quest item and I'm just there for exp, I can get exp anywhere, but they can only get the item they need there. The solution seems simple.

I think maybe part of the reason us older players (older as in time playing EQ, not necessarily age) don't see these issues as much is that we've learned where to go to avoid them. There are certain "common" paths that everyone seems to follow. When you get a bit more experience with the game, you know which areas are likely to be overrun with higher level campers.

One aspect to realize about EQ, is that there are a lot of things that you need to do that require you to kill/hunt/camp lower level mobs. Ok, not "require", but they're alot easier. I can get money a hell of a lot faster "camping" a bunch of green or lt blue mobs then I'll ever get killing blues (grouped or not). While "farming" has gotten a bad rep over time, virtually every single "how do I make plat" thread will be answered (by veteran players) with "gain levels, then farm". Many quests will require killing lots of lower level mobs in order to get the higher level named guy to spawn. As you learn more about the game, you learn where these spots are, and you learn where to hunt with your lower level alts so that you avoid it as much as possible.


As to getting camps taken? Well, that's just odds, and it doesn't really mean that lots of people are rude or selfish. In fact, it's a small number. Again though, putting yourself in a high traffic area increases the odds that during any given time period, a selfish person will come along. How many people came by, and passed right on without taking your camp before someone did? Odds are, even if you didn't see them, there were dozens. I really can't stress enough how learning the game will make those problems go away. There will always be a certain percentage of Aholes in any game. No amount of petitioning or complaining will ever remove them entirely. You just have to learn how to reduce your likelyhood of running into them. Hunting at Derv2 or Derv3 in Nro is a bad idea. You're right on the road everyone takes to/from the LDoN missions in that area. Same with EF. Same with BB. Take that same character into EC or WC, and you'll likely see no one, and no one will bother you. Find a corner of Shadeweaver's that isn't the one with the shades that drop the swirling shadows, and you wont see anyone higher then level 12. You just have to learn the right places to hunt at the right levels to avoid people, and you'll get bothered less.


As to the whole "necro killed my guard" thing. That's also something you have to learn to deal with as you play the game. The thing is that you can look at this issue one of two ways:


Gamer: If you're looking at effectiveness, then there really shouldn't be a deal here. Dying at level 10 costs you nothing. You respawn with all your gear at your bind point. In a very min/max sort of way, guards are more of a pain in the butt then a help. Guards don't protect you at all. They just attack anything they are KoS to that comes within range. That includes that mob you beat down to near zero health that always seems to decide to deathwalk directly towards the guard who is more then willing to kill it and deprive you of any exp.

There is no real "need" for guards in a newbie zone. They just kill stuff that you could have killed for exp/loot if they hadn't been there. Sure, you can feel a bit safer resting by the guards, so that's something. But honestly, I'm betting that if you just died and ran back to the spot, you'd be able to continue fighting faster then if you sat and rested by the guards. The necro really wasn't costing you anything...


roleplayer: Even if you don't think of yourself as a roleplayer, there's always that tendency to think of them as "my guards". Heck. You think they are there to protect you already. You're halfway there. Once you realize that from a gaming perspective, guards will usually hurt you more then help, then all that's left is a roleplaying attachment to not killing the "good guys".

There's nothing wrong with that. However, there's also nothing wrong with the necro killing the goody-goody dwarf guards. That's certainly roleplaying, right?


In any case, as someone else already pointed out, you will very soon not be able to use guards to protect you anyway. How often really does this happen? Think of a necro killing your guards as good practice. Instead of sitting where the guards are to be "safe", why not watch the mobs? Pay attention to the routes they take through the zone. There are always spots in every zone (usually along zone walls), where mobs wont ever path. Use those for resting instead of relying on NPCs to protect you. That's a skill that will serve you very well. People train mobs to NPCs. They train them to zonelines. They generally do not train them to some random out of the way spot halfway up a hillside along a zonewall.

That's just another area where game experience teaches you to protect yourself from the actions of other players. Once you learn how to avoid having the actions of others hurt you, you'll find that most of that stuff just doesn't bother you. Again, there is no way you can change the habits and behavior of everyone else in the game. It just wont happen. Folks will do stuff that will hurt you, either intentionally or unintentionally. There are just too many reasons why someone might want to do something that you don't understand or don't like. Some are just selfish, some are not. Don't try to figure everyone else out and change them. Just observe the game, observe what happens where, and avoid areas where things happen that you don't like.